Wow!!
Many moons ago,in Edmonton, Alberta, I was on my flight test with the DOT inspector, nervous and on my best behavior, returning to City Center for final landing and get the news if I got my ticket or not.
Concentrating on flying straight and level, when all of a sudden, out from above and behind me, another Piper came right at me as to engage in a dog fight. Holy shoot! That got my attention. I did know it would have to be some instructor from the school playing around, thinking it was another instructor on board this Tomahawk. DOT guy said, continue and we'll deal with this guy on the ground.
OK, so I land and start taxiing faster than normal, to the ramp, shut everything down and tell the inspector I'd be right back. I found the mother and dropped him like a turd from a tall cow's a**s... Part of me regrets that...
I was young and foolish, now that I'm all growed up, hesitant because this guy acknowledged that he knew you were on final and proceeded anyways, I would still find a way to try and talk to him first. Maybe he doesn't know procedure cause there is no tower to tell everyone what to do, or he just don't know better. So, you work it out and everyone leaves friends. If he persists on being a jerk, report him to the FAA and any appropriate authority. Not cause he's got a bi shiny plane or money or whatever, cause he's dangerous!
JD

Bonanza Man wrote:.....No, he still doesn't have the right of way. He's not in the pattern at 10 miles. If so where do you draw the line? ....

No offense, but did you even read 91.113(g) ? No mention of being in the pattern, just "on final approach to land". To me, 10 miles out is stretching the definition of "final approach" but the reg's are pretty vague in that regard & don't address that. The last sentence of 91.113(g) sez in this landing situation that the airplane at the lower altitude has right-of-way, but "it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land...". So your "me, I'm turning base" reaction might actually be in violation of the regs.
Like I said, rules are one thing and manners are another. Unfortunately, the regs take precedent over common courtesy (which really isn't all that common these days.....)

Eric

No way, no how am I going out to follow a guy on a 10 mile final. The right of way regs never come into play until two aircraft are in conflict. Just how is a guy on a 10 mile final in conflict with me on a midfield downwind? To your point, if I'm in my super whiz bang jet and call in on a 30 mile final have I now just forced everybody on downwind to follow me? No, the right of way rules don't apply. Yet.

I just thought I would make a couple of points we all need to keep in mind at uncontrolled airports.

Just because everybody is taking off or landing in a particular direction due to the favored wind does not preclude anyone for any reason from taking off in another direction. Hollister is a perfect example of 2 crossing runways and everything from trikes, students, gliders, jump planes, jets to tankers using different runways all at the same time. In the afternoon the prevailing wind is usually 20-25 knots down 24, a perfect crosswind to 31. But in a loaded S2T going to a fire we use 31 no matter what. We simply cannot safely use the shorter 24 runway loaded to 30,000#. So EVERYONE needs to be extra cautious because no one can see each other from the runway ends. Gliders sit on the runway as they wait to be hooked up to the tow-plane,.... yet everyone works together and calls out traffic if they see a conflict, even if someone is not using a radio,...WHICH IS OK, and legal. The same situation at Columbia and Grass Valley, in tankers we land opposing the prevailing traffic, even with 15 knots quartering up the pipe. The runway slope, rising terrain, and minimum turn around time for reload, are the overriding factors. So keep in mind, you don't HAVE to use the same runway as everyone else if its not safe.

Of course even declaring an EMERGENCY doesn't preclude someone from STILL landing in front of you. Last year I had a gear issue. The uncontrolled airport had a temporary tower due to the high volume of tankers landing for reload for all the fires. It had been active for 2 weeks. I declared an emergency, a full rescue response was waiting on the sides of the runway. I enter the overhead, turned downwind, gear down, shut down the left engine in case that gear collapsed. Turning base, tower advises me there is a Citabria they do not have contact with, landing the OPPOSITE direction,.....be prepared to go around!! WHAT THE F%$#&??!!! I turn final, they still do not have contact with him. I got one engine shut down, gear down, and there i go,....I go around,.... during a declared emergency at a towered airport!!!! Fortunately the S2T is a great performer single engine. As I fly the pattern, sure enough there is the Citabria turning off the runway. Turns out the guy in the Citabria had a total electrical failure, didn't know there was a temporary tower,... and didn't know what was going on when he saw all the fire/rescue trucks all over. Don't know what happened to him.

Goes to show,.... even an emergency won't stop a traffic conflict! GEEEEZ!!!

Hi Mark,
I fly out of Fallbrook part of the time and it sounds like the guy was in error. Even the auto wx report says listen for traffic to determine runway in use. The only guy I know there with a 206 sold it earlier this month and got a 182 but he is a competent, courteous type and would'nt do something like this. Coming at you while your on final borders on careless or reckless and I think a "talk" is in order. If the guy is receptive then thats that but if a jerk tell him next time there will be consequences he won't like. Everybody at l18 seems pretty nice-we don't need jerks to screw it up. Good luck.
P.S.-my hangar partner Terry has a Rans coyote.

Dave

Gee, Mr. A**wipe is at my airport too in the high rent district. He did an overhead entry in front of me on downwind after I had announce entering downwind from the junkyard and announcing downwind at the golf course. I unpolitely asked him what he was doing and and he informed me that I was not downwind yet.

We are both based at the airport and I went down to his hangar to talk about it, and he locked himself in the hangar and would not talk about it. Yeah I really was going to talk to him (well yell and cuss at him).

I did get the opportunity to tell him later that such behaviour could be detrimental to both of our health if we violated the the noise abatement ordinance by colliding, and it would be detrimental to his continued use of the airport if it happens again. As expected he told me I cut him off and to leave him alone.

I guess A**wipes are just that. PS I haven't seem him do an overhead entry since our little 'talk'.

Bonanza Man wrote:... The right of way regs never come into play until two aircraft are in conflict. Just how is a guy on a 10 mile final in conflict with me on a midfield downwind? ....

I was under the impression that we were talking about a conflict situation. I agree with you, if there's no conflict there's no right-of-way issues. But I can see how there could be a potential conflict between someone doing touch-n-go's in a slow airplane turning onto a long downwind about the time that jet made his 10- mile straight-in call.... and I can see how that downwind traffic might think "I'm flying the pattern so I have right of way". Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Personal view

I will always give way first, gas and time are cheap compared to an accident.

It not a matter of who is right, but who is left over.

Chris C

Well, I tried like heck to keep my mouth shut, but not going to happen.

It's interesting that most of these improper etiquette/pattern procedures are acurring in California unless I missed a post by someone from a differant state. I had two very similir incidents in southern California this last Jan.

Going into Big Bear on a beautiful day after Christmas (and cheap fuel!!), I looked up the proper pattern procedure for Big Bear (L35) and followed it to a tee. I announced all my proper possition reports in the pattern (and it was very busy with planes coming in from all directions and planes taking off). After calling out 'Short Final Runway 8", some A$$wipe pulled out onto the active and held long enough to where I had to do a go around. I never heard A$$wipe call out that he was taking off runway 8 and I had a few choice words with him (even though maybe he didn't hear me). Another pilot chimed in too. I assume A$$wipe was on another freq??

Then that same day, flew over to the Hesperia from Big Bear and reported 10 out, 5 out, and then heard one plane on the ground taking off runway 3. I didn't hear or see any other planes (except the plane taking off runway 3 to the north) (I was coming in from the east) so I went for and anounced the 45 for runway 3, anounced right downwind runway 3, anounced base runway 3, anounced final runway 3 (never heard or seen another plane in the pattern). When I was short final, I saw a plane almost landing on runway 21 . The other pilot said "I guess I'll be the one to do a go around". I landed runway 3 which the sock was favoring along with departing traffic. Then he had the nerve to tell me that I should have been flying the proper pattern and announcing my possitions!! I had a few choice words with him, too.

But yeah, I think it's best to talk to the other pilot first. I think telling him about the camera thing is a good idea. Heck, most of us have camera's rolling in the cockpit anyway and can be very believable whether you did have the incident on video or not. It would maybe give the other guy something to think about anyway.

58Skylane wrote: After calling out 'Short Final Runway 8", some A$$wipe pulled out onto the active and held long enough to where I had to do a go around. I never heard A$$wipe call out that he was taking off runway 8 and I had a few choice words with him (even though maybe he didn't hear me). Another pilot chimed in too. I assume A$$wipe was on another freq??

Though this guy didn't do a thorough visual check of the pattern and final, at an uncontrolled airport he doesn't need, or is required to have a radio. So aside from pulling out in front of you, if he didn't have a radio, or it was broke,.... he was still legal. Its dangerous to sit on a runway for takeoff too long for sure, since you can't see who is behind you. And you were it! Not defending him, he should have taken more time and looked better. But maybe it was a genuine mistake? And a busted radio.

by 58Skylane: It's interesting that most of these improper etiquette/pattern procedures are acurring in California unless I missed a post by someone from a differant state. I had two very similir incidents in southern California this last Jan.

Too many planes and too few places to go to. We need some winding rivers complete with sandbars and not-so-big rocks, some recently mowed alfalfa fields, some cow pastures managed by friendly/accommodating dairy farmers, and a healthy sprinkling of mountainside meadows to make things better. Since I don't think we will get those places to move here, guess we'll have to go there instead.

Taildown wrote:

by 58Skylane: It's interesting that most of these improper etiquette/pattern procedures are acurring in California unless I missed a post by someone from a differant state. I had two very similir incidents in southern California this last Jan.

Too many planes and too few places to go to. We need some winding rivers complete with sandbars and not-so-big rocks, some recently mowed alfalfa fields, some cow pastures managed by friendly/accommodating dairy farmers, and a healthy sprinkling of mountainside meadows to make things better. Since I don't think we will get those places to move here, guess we'll have to go there instead.

Come on up!! Just leave all the azzwipes down there, please....

by 58Skylane: Come on up!! Just leave all the azzwipes down there, please....

Well....be careful what you ask for. We are looking for some property somewhere out of The Peoples Republic of Pelosi, and my dad did grow up on a dairy farm outside Boise. Know anyone with a dozen or so acres for sale?

Taildown wrote:

by 58Skylane: Come on up!! Just leave all the azzwipes down there, please....

Well....be careful what you ask for. We are looking for some property somewhere out of The Peoples Republic of Pelosi, and my dad did grow up on a dairy farm outside Boise. Know anyone with a dozen or so acres for sale?

There's alot of great deals up here right now. If you have the money, now is the time to buy!! Are you looking for enough land for an airstrip?

Opps, I think we're getting a little off topic

There's alot of great deals up here right now. If you have the money, now is the time to buy!! Are you looking for enough land for an airstrip?

Opps, I think we're getting a little off topic

Yeah, even though I started this mess, I wouldn't want it to degenerate and take a left-turn to where it doesn't belong

PM sent

hotrod150 wrote:

Bonanza Man wrote:... The right of way regs never come into play until two aircraft are in conflict. Just how is a guy on a 10 mile final in conflict with me on a midfield downwind? ....

I was under the impression that we were talking about a conflict situation. I agree with you, if there's no conflict there's no right-of-way issues. But I can see how there could be a potential conflict between someone doing touch-n-go's in a slow airplane turning onto a long downwind about the time that jet made his 10- mile straight-in call.... and I can see how that downwind traffic might think "I'm flying the pattern so I have right of way". Sorry for the misunderstanding.

That's why I said to do the math. I know where I'll turn base, right at the numbers. That still leaves the other guy 8 or 9 miles out. Even if he's doing 200 knots he's got 3 minutes to the runway. No factor. If you go slower or want to turn onto a 1 mile final you may want to extend to follow or do a 360.

My two cents: Once I stopped being really steamed at the arrogance of this horrible person, I might consider that the other guy may just be a human being making a mistake. Maybe not, but isn't the best way to find out to ask a question, probably in writing? I'm thinking something like "Last Saturday [or whenever it was] when you took off on Runway 36, I was on short final to 18. I thought I made radio calls to base and final for 18, other people responded to my radio calls, so maybe you missed them. Could you check your radio sometime and make sure it's working so we don't meet this way again? Thanks."

It may be bullshit, but it gives him a way to say he's sorry and maybe to learn something without eating too much crow. And, who knows?, there may really *be* an explanation for what he did that makes sense, not this time perhaps, but the next time something happens where I'm *sure* I'm right at the time.

the-adam wrote:My two cents: Once I stopped being really steamed at the arrogance of this horrible person, I might consider that the other guy may just be a human being making a mistake. Maybe not, but isn't the best way to find out to ask a question, probably in writing? I'm thinking something like "Last Saturday [or whenever it was] when you took off on Runway 36, I was on short final to 18. I thought I made radio calls to base and final for 18, other people responded to my radio calls, so maybe you missed them. Could you check your radio sometime and make sure it's working so we don't meet this way again? Thanks."

It may be bullshit, but it gives him a way to say he's sorry and maybe to learn something without eating too much crow. And, who knows?, there may really *be* an explanation for what he did that makes sense, not this time perhaps, but the next time something happens where I'm *sure* I'm right at the time.

You do have a very good point here that I didn't think about before!! I will admitt that I have been on the wrong freq a few times (and I'm sure that's the same for a few others here). But I'm still kind of a newbie and I'm always double checking to make sure I'm on the right freq for the area and airport I'm flying into or over. When I make an announcement and don't hear anybody, I double check to make sure I'm on the right freq. Then keep my eyes looking for other aircraft. If I'm in an area between freq, I will monitor another freq so I can hear if someone else is nearby if they make an announcement. For example, if I'm flying along the foothills between Caldwell and Emmett, I'll be on 122.7 while monitoring 122.9 or vice versa.

There are about 10 airfield in the Boise area (to the west of BOI), and the freq ranges from 122.7, 122.8, 122.9. I have heard pilots on the wrong freq many times in the Boise area. For example, I heard a pilot announcing he was 5 out from Ontario, OR when I was on 122.7 near Caldwell, ID. Well, Ontario's freq is 122.8. I replied to him he was on the wrong freq for ONO and he didn't reply back to me. So I assume he switched freq before or after I mentioned he was on the wrong freq.

But still, there's absalutely no excuse for any pilot to take off agianst the flow of traffic when there's a couple of planes in the pattern and a plane is on final. And no excuse for any pilot to take the active when a plane is on short final with it's landing lights on!

Yea I've had the same thing happen a number of times. I'll be coming by Emmett on 122.9 and I'll hear a radio call for either Nampa or Caldwell. I usually tell them that the correct frequency is 122.7, but I don't a response either. And then I'll keep hearing the radio calls for base and final etc. on the wrong freq. Almost like they have their radio turned down or they are hearing other peoples calls, but not LISTENING to the calls. I always keep my eyes peeled really good around Nampa and Caldwell.