182 STOL driver wrote:....I fly into and out of 1200 ft. strip at ranch and use 1/4 -1/3 length .

At or quite possibly over gross? ...at high DAs? Just wondering is all.

I'm with Rob on this one....

Short field I never stop, keep my nose low, have my 20 degrees of flaps. Field conditions ie slush, snow, mud, gravel, wet sand, dry sand, are much more important factors than whether you drop your flaps mid take off run or stop and run up. However for this discussion I will justify my ideas.

Never stop, even on a narrow strip using a differential brake turn I can get as close to the end of the gravel bar, runway, etc and keep going as I can stopping, however any amount of momentum is always on my side. And I don't ding up the prop as much.

Nose low. The overall profile of a nose-high 206 is much larger and creates more drag than just the flaps.

Established flaps. Given the time it takes for the flaps to travel to 20 degrees (roughly 1.5 to 2.5 seconds), I have to put them in fairly quickly on the take off run. Drag goes up drastically with speed, but I am at very low speeds as i accelerate in that time before I add flaps so not that much drag is saved. With electric flaps, I think that this is more psychological than a real help.

my 2 cents

What about this technique?
(new pilot ,so you can throw stones at me)
Go to minute 3 so you dont waste time watching it taxiing.
It is me, was told too much back pressure



And this

Moto-

Looks great! But....since you said your a new pilot your going to have a million opinions. Should of left that part out and watch the responses. It does look good. Slow engine run up, brake release, 20 degrees set, ground roll nose up and your off the ground in 300', push yoke slightly forward to gain air speed, bleed flaps, come back and do it again.

Funny, I looked up this topic last night on the Skywagon and Supercub forum (flaps/no flaps /tail high/tail low and it has pages upon pages with various responses.

Each field condition, aircraft, pilot, etc., needs to do what works and feels good to them. The only way to know is going out and doing it over and over in the various conditons to feel what is correct for you and your aircraft at the given condtion.

When you have a chance go DOWN HILL to take off -wind and terrain permitting . It takes a lot of thrust to get a 2000+ lb airplane up the hill --- now if the airstrip is where you can go down hill -even a little you will be to lift off speed sooner.

Nizina wrote:

Rob wrote: oh and BTW next time your at Valdez, ask Paul Klaus if (he's very personable) ...

Rob

Almost died laughing with that one -- what a set up.

BTW, both Don W. and Kelly with WMA fly in and out of my airstrip regularly and never have I seen either one, or any other pilot with WMA, for that matter, step on their breaks and run up their engines to full power as a prelude to ground roll for takeoff. They may do it under certain situations, but then there is no right way all the time...

...lol... Kevin, '253 is actually one of Paul birds and was being piloted by Paul that day I did mis speak about Don Welte though. I don't think he entered at all in '09, and this year he was in his cub... His take offs were 89' and 95'... Not too shabby for a basicly stock cub! No preset flaps BTW...

Those guys are the real deal, no doubt. And I suspect if Kelly saw Don laying the whip to his $10K prop on a gravel bench, Don would have some 'splainin to do... If any of you guys remember the story in the hunting magazine about the guide pilot that succesfully flew himself and his hunter to help after they were both attacked by a bear... That was Don:

http://www.mccarthy-kennicott.com/ND2004/index.html

Nizina, Next time you see Don, tell him to give us desert rats a call, I just might know of another 180 that needs bringing down, and I'm sure he'll be ready for some suinshine

Take care, Rob

Rob

I'll pass along your request from the desert rats to Don. Regarding Valdez 2010, Don did fly his stock cub but for some reason his landings were long. Kelly entered the 2009 event with his 185 but came in 3rd, beat out by a 182 if you can believe it.

That bear attack on Don was a real scary deal. Don was VERY lucky. Don't know what it is about large grizzly bear, but for some reason they seem to always try to get your whole head in their mouth. I have seen a lot of grizzly bear when flying over that area in the past: just sand, high grass and lots of bear trails. Great places to land and play on the beach, though!

Drop out and visit us some time in the Wrangells,
Nizina

aktahoe1 wrote:.....Funny, I looked up this topic last night on the Skywagon and Supercub forum (flaps/no flaps /tail high/tail low and it has pages upon pages with various responses.
Each field condition, aircraft, pilot, etc., needs to do what works and feels good to them. The only way to know is going out and doing it over and over in the various conditons to feel what is correct for you and your aircraft at the given condtion.

Like Nizina & Rob both pointed out earlier, there is no one right way or one size fits all technique. Even in similar conditions, what works well for one pilot may not work as well for another. As was pointed out, the old wheel landing vs 3 point debate is a good example. But I will admit that some good points are made in these arguments, I mean discussions, so keep it up.

I thought it was cool... Man he used it all, but made it..

lowlevelops wrote:

182 STOL driver wrote:....I fly into and out of 1200 ft. strip at ranch and use 1/4 -1/3 length .

At or quite possibly over gross? ...at high DAs? Just wondering is all.

I'm with Rob on this one....

Density Altitude in hot Arizona strip summers runs 5-6 grand Density Altitude .Aircraft(56 182) load is usually 600 lbs of 1000 useful -legal 2550 .I'll try and get video .

182 STOL driver wrote:

lowlevelops wrote:

182 STOL driver wrote:....I fly into and out of 1200 ft. strip at ranch and use 1/4 -1/3 length .

At or quite possibly over gross? ...at high DAs? Just wondering is all.

I'm with Rob on this one....

Density Altitude in hot Arizona strip summers runs 5-6 grand Density Altitude .Aircraft(56 182) load is usually 600 lbs of 1000 useful -legal 2550 .I'll try and get video .

How about your empty weight with all the "Mods"? Only 1550 ??????

Tell the truth now, I know when your lying!

182 STOL driver wrote:

lowlevelops wrote:

182 STOL driver wrote:....I fly into and out of 1200 ft. strip at ranch and use 1/4 -1/3 length .

At or quite possibly over gross? ...at high DAs? Just wondering is all.

I'm with Rob on this one....

Density Altitude in hot Arizona strip summers runs 5-6 grand Density Altitude .Aircraft(56 182) load is usually 600 lbs of 1000 useful -legal 2550 .I'll try and get video .

Thats amazing, I started my flying career in CE188s 20 yrs ago and I don't think I ever got one off the ground in less than 2500' with a full load. I don't remember for sure but I think the gross on the 188 was around 4000lbs and full flaps was 20*, that could explain the differences in ground roll.

[quote=" I fly into and out of 1200 ft. strip at ranch and use 1/4 -1/3 length . [/quote]

DA 5000' to 6000'......600# on board?

Sorry.......but I say bullshit on that one. I was born at night..........but not last night.

A few years ago a good friend of mine had a 53 C-180 with a P-ponk 0-520 and a 3 bladed prop. It was an exceptionally light plane although I don't know the empty weight. There's a dirt strip near my house at about 1500' msl which is fairly hard dirt, but has quite a few sandy washes that cross it. The temperature was about 80*, no wind. The strip was marked every 100' with markers. He was alone (200#s) with no rear seat and about 30 gallons of gas on board and was consistently getting off at about 300'. My 75 C-180 with a 0-470 and 88" 2 blade with 30 gallons and just myself (190#s) was getting off at about 400' to 425'. Now I'm no bizillion hour pilot that claims to know everything, but I know what I know, and I see what I see.

Flame on.............

Hafast wrote:[quote=" I fly into and out of 1200 ft. strip at ranch and use 1/4 -1/3 length .

DA 5000' to 6000'......600# on board?

Sorry.......but I say bullshit on that one. I was born at night..........but not last night.

A few years ago a good friend of mine had a 53 C-180 with a P-ponk 0-520 and a 3 bladed prop. It was an exceptionally light plane although I don't know the empty weight. There's a dirt strip near my house at about 1500' msl which is fairly hard dirt, but has quite a few sandy washes that cross it. The temperature was about 80*. The strip was marked every 100' with markers. He was alone (200#s) with no rear seat and about 30 gallons of gas on board and was consistently getting off at about 300'. My 75 C-180 with a 0-470 and 88" 2 blade with 30 gallons and just myself (190#s) was getting off at about 400' to 425'. Now I'm no bizillion hour pilot that claims to know everything, but I know what I know, and I see what I see.

Come on down to AZ50 and we'll play . How about a case of oil for the winner . I'll be there whenever your ready.
Flame on.............[/quote]

Oh yeah........ Gettin good now!!

182 STOL driver wrote:

Hafast wrote:[quote=" I fly into and out of 1200 ft. strip at ranch and use 1/4 -1/3 length .

DA 5000' to 6000'......600# on board?

Sorry.......but I say bullshit on that one. I was born at night..........but not last night.

A few years ago a good friend of mine had a 53 C-180 with a P-ponk 0-520 and a 3 bladed prop. It was an exceptionally light plane although I don't know the empty weight. There's a dirt strip near my house at about 1500' msl which is fairly hard dirt, but has quite a few sandy washes that cross it. The temperature was about 80*. The strip was marked every 100' with markers. He was alone (200#s) with no rear seat and about 30 gallons of gas on board and was consistently getting off at about 300'. My 75 C-180 with a 0-470 and 88" 2 blade with 30 gallons and just myself (190#s) was getting off at about 400' to 425'. Now I'm no bizillion hour pilot that claims to know everything, but I know what I know, and I see what I see.

Come on down to AZ50 and we'll play . How about a case of oil for the winner . I'll be there whenever your ready.
Flame on.............

[/quote]


Sir..........if you and your plane perform that well you should go to Valdez next year and show those guys what it's all about. At sea level and 50* with 600# on board you should smoke those guys hands down. Hell........I'd even put money on you!

20 knot wind straight down the runway today with 30 gallons at 5000' Lowrider 57-180 and I 53-180 were both off in around 150' seriously....One has a Horton with VG's the other has the Bush kit, no VG's...both had exceptional lift off. Stopping in around 300 or so...give or take. We had a good day!

Oh yeah...were throwing a party! Come play and quit the spray....were gonna have some fun!

My first time off airport was on a gravel bar. On take off, the tail comes up...(the water looks close) so I pull back a little....(now the water IS close) pull back a little harder....I mush off the ground just short of the water, the air coming off the wings leave ripples in the water. (I have the vid )
My buddy (that took the vid) has a heart to heart with me when we get back to the airport .
My second off airport..... on take off, no flaps, I help the tail off to keep the wings level to lesson drag....pull flaps and yard back on the yoke, level off in ground effect. Way shorter ground time.

In my particular plane, on that particular bar

lowlevelops wrote:

182 STOL driver wrote:....I fly into and out of 1200 ft. strip at ranch and use 1/4 -1/3 length .

At or quite possibly over gross? ...at high DAs? Just wondering is all.

I'm with Rob on this one....

I fly a 182 converted to a tail wheel............................thinking about REconverting it now

Date: 16-FEB-2009
Time: ca 09:30
Type:
Cessna 182N
Operator: Robert Norton
Registration: YV2480
C/n / msn: 182-60266
Fatalities: Fatalities: / Occupants: 7
Airplane damage: Unknown
Location: Venezuela - Venezuela
Phase: En route
Nature: Ambulance
Departure airport: Karun
Destination airport: Bethel
Narrative:
Missing. Cessna aircraft Model c182N, color white with grey red black stripes down side.
Picture of Ambulance aircraft http://www.medicalaviation.org/venezuela/10-9-08.htm

Timeline
1) The plane left Santa Elena and arrived in Karum successfully.
2) The plane departed Karum heading to Betel.
[search starts here]
3) On the way to Betel after they left Karum, they were reported by residents of the village named u201CMaruku201D as hearing the plane and then hearing unexpected engine silence.
4) The plane was then reported as heading North near the village Maruk towards the village Betel where
5) Residents reported hearing the plane coming towards them, but it did not arrive.
The search is now focused between Karum and Betel

Karum is latitude 5°18'8.94"N longitude 63°21'47.22"W
Betel is latitude 6°25'48.91"N longitude 63°34'40.97"W

The search box width is 8.2 miles east of the ridge line near latitude 5°44'14.80"N longitude 63°22'0.43"W. The search area follows from the ridge line north 33 miles.

All of the pilots anticipate the flight path route to be East of the mountain. Since the river route has already been searched, the helicopter and ground crews have been sweeping the Eastern area and are moving further East.