whee wrote:I don't own a honda but the concern would be starting the generator (any brand) when it is cold soaked.

Whee- I do it all the time with the 1K and 2K Hondas. I last started a cold-soaked one three days ago. At most it may sometimes require a couple dozen pulls of the cord, but it always fires. Around -20F the oil is slow to register oil pressure, and they will shut themselves off after running a couple minutes. Just wait for the heat from running to seep around, and it will usually catch and stay lit after that. I know it doesn't sound like great way to treat equipment, but I honestly have tons of problem free hours on these things. I've never had one of the small Hondas not work when I needed it.
-DP

denalipilot wrote:

whee wrote:I don't own a honda but the concern would be starting the generator (any brand) when it is cold soaked.

Whee- I do it all the time. Last started a cold-soaked one three days ago. At most it may sometimes require a couple dozen pulls of the cord, but it always fires. Around -20F the oil is slow to register oil pressure, and they will shut themselves off after running a couple minutes. Just wait for the heat from running to soak around, and it will usually catch and stay lit after that. I know it doesn't sound like great way to treat equipment, but I have tons of hours on these things problem free. I've never had one of the small Hondas not work when I needed it.
-DP

Good to know. Thanks

denalipilot wrote:

whee wrote:I don't own a honda but the concern would be starting the generator (any brand) when it is cold soaked.

Whee- I do it all the time with the 1K and 2K Hondas. I last started a cold-soaked one three days ago. At most it may sometimes require a couple dozen pulls of the cord, but it always fires. Around -20F the oil is slow to register oil pressure, and they will shut themselves off after running a couple minutes. Just wait for the heat from running to seep around, and it will usually catch and stay lit after that. I know it doesn't sound like great way to treat equipment, but I honestly have tons of problem free hours on these things. I've never had one of the small Hondas not work when I needed it.
-DP

I have had the same experience with the small Yamaha generators as well, takes a lot of pulls when it's cold, and it will usually auto shut off once or twice till the oil warms up. my wife made a insulated blanket to put over it, so run it, if it stops, throw the blanket on for a few minutes, start it again, always worked out. I did try to take it in with me when ever possible, but didn't always work out.

denalipilot wrote:I know it doesn't sound like great way to treat equipment, but I honestly have tons of problem free hours on these things. I've never had one of the small Hondas not work when I needed it.

And, in any case, better to abuse a little generator than an airplane engine!

denalipilot wrote:

whee wrote:I don't own a honda but the concern would be starting the generator (any brand) when it is cold soaked.

Whee- I do it all the time with the 1K and 2K Hondas. I last started a cold-soaked one three days ago. At most it may sometimes require a couple dozen pulls of the cord, but it always fires. Around -20F the oil is slow to register oil pressure, and they will shut themselves off after running a couple minutes. Just wait for the heat from running to seep around, and it will usually catch and stay lit after that. I know it doesn't sound like great way to treat equipment, but I honestly have tons of problem free hours on these things. I've never had one of the small Hondas not work when I needed it.
-DP

DP is right on target, his advice is true. My tips on the little Honda's in real cold FWIW:

1. Make sure you get the optional crankcase breather heater kit installed. I had mine running at McGrath at -40F, the breather froze and blew crank seals out, oil runs out, you are done. Old timers say you can prop a cardboard box over it and that will retain heat, but the kit is like $60 and easy to put on.

2. I use full synthetic 0W-30W or 5-30W if you cant find 0-30. The 1000's only take 1/4 quart and the 2000's 1/2 quart. The full synthetic will make the cold soak starting better.

3. When its real cold, approximately -10F and below you might find the generator stops running after a bit. Its because it gets too lean due to the cold dense air. Simple solution is to leave a little (1/8-1/4) choke on, and it runs fine.

4. I have been out on the Iditarod Trail and other places with no building to go into, camping at -30F to -40F. I have been known to pull the little Honda 1000 into my Wiggys -60F sleeping bag with me and get it warmed up by my body heat. Cold little fellow when you bring him in the bag! Your other option is just keep it running if it is inside the plane and warm when you land. The 1000 sips fuel, and 3 gallons probably will run it 24 hours.

5. As far as 100LL, I don't worry about it. I have run lots and lots of tanks of 100LL through these Hondas at my cabin, as thats all I stock for fuel. I know some have had plug leading or valve guide problems running 100LL but I have run them 100's of hours on nothing but. Occasionally put Marvel Mystery oil in the gas, and clean the plug. One or two tanks is not going to hurt that Honda at all.

BTW, I have a Reiff Magnum kit, sump pad heater and optional oil cooler heat pad, on my O-320-B2B in my PA-12. Honda 1000 will stay in eco mode, so endurance and noise is at low levels. I can add the battery blanket heater and it kicks up out of eco, but still not pushing full load on the 1000. Have lots of -30F to -40F preheats with the Reiff/Honda solution. Honda fits sideways in front of my belly pod so really is out of the way and does not take up much room or add rear CG to load.

What oil folks running in their generators? I'd be sort of surprised if the full synthetic 0-weight oils would get viscous enough to trip the pressure switch at 10 or 20 below, but maybe.

Denali Pilot,

I'm thinking of buying a Honda generator for a Reiff Turbo system on an O-300. I was going to buy a 1K generator, but read in your post that they need a 2K. I was hoping to get by with the lighter weight generator after what I read in the Reiff info. From what you said that's a no-go? I'm disappointed because the 2K generator looks to be nearly twice the weight. Is the problem that the 1K just won't handle the continuous load? Riff shows the Turbo XP at a total of 800W (200W on oil pan and 100W on each cylinder). Honda says their generator will output [email protected]. Regardless of what the paper says, I'll obviously defer to real world experience.

Thanks.

Frank

If it's 800w the Honda 1000 will run it fine, may kick out of eco mode. If you put oil cooler pad on it might be closer to max, not sure what that wattage is.

fshaw wrote:Denali Pilot,

I'm thinking of buying a Honda generator for a Reiff Turbo system on an O-300. I was going to buy a 1K generator, but read in your post that they need a 2K. I was hoping to get by with the lighter weight generator after what I read in the Reiff info. From what you said that's a no-go? I'm disappointed because the 2K generator looks to be nearly twice the weight. Is the problem that the 1K just won't handle the continuous load? Riff shows the Turbo XP at a total of 800W (200W on oil pan and 100W on each cylinder). Honda says their generator will output [email protected]. Regardless of what the paper says, I'll obviously defer to real world experience.

Thanks.

Frank

Frank- I wish I could test it for you, but it's been a couple years since I swapped out my O-300 Continental with Reiff Turbo XP, for a IO-360 Lyc with Tanis. I looked at the Turbo XP on the Reiff site and I see the same numbers as you- 100W/cylinder, and 200W on the sump. So, should be 800W for the whole shebang. If my memory is good, I tried running the Turbo XP on my 1K Honda, but eventually settled on my 2K Honda because it tripped less. At this point I wouldn't swear on it though. Hopefully somebody else can weigh in. You're right, the 1K is substantially smaller and lighter than the 2K. If you're operating regularly in these kind of temps, it's nice to carry something like a Little Buddy heater for warming the passenger space and behind the panel. If so, that would certainly put you over, as I believe they are around 900W. If you're installing either a Reiff or a Tanis, a slick install is to wire it to a male-pronged socket mounted in the boot cowl, and also tie in a pigtail to the passenger compartment for plugging in cabin heat.

Hammer- I use Mobil 1 synthetic 5-30 in the Hondas year-round. I guess I could change it for winter, but I haven't bothered. Pretty slight difference according to the charts.

If you don't already have the Turbo Reiff, a standard one really does a pretty great job, if you cover the cowl. I went with the standard system (50 watt bands, single 100 watt pan heater) on my O-360 Lycoming, and I've never been sorry. Considering that I'm heating a little more mass than your O-300 (about 32 lbs more aluminum) with fewer 50 watt bands, I would think the standard Reiff would work very well for you. But the key is an adequate cover, and I also have blade and spinner covers. If I don't cover the cowl, spinner, and blades, the standard system is just barely adequate much below 20F; if I do cover, the engine is at Spring-time temps down to at least -10F.

Cary

fshaw wrote:Denali Pilot,

I'm thinking of buying a Honda generator for a Reiff Turbo system on an O-300. I was going to buy a 1K generator, but read in your post that they need a 2K. I was hoping to get by with the lighter weight generator after what I read in the Reiff info. From what you said that's a no-go? I'm disappointed because the 2K generator looks to be nearly twice the weight. Is the problem that the 1K just won't handle the continuous load? Riff shows the Turbo XP at a total of 800W (200W on oil pan and 100W on each cylinder). Honda says their generator will output [email protected]. Regardless of what the paper says, I'll obviously defer to real world experience.

Thanks.

Frank

My 1000-watt Yamaha runs my Reiff Turbo XP system on the O-320 without any problem. Total wattage of the heaters is 625.

But a 6 cylinder engine will need 800 watts or so. Not sure if the 1000-watt generators are up to that.

I am following this and am undecided to either carry a generator or go with lightweight MSR stove pre heater setup.

gptc wrote:I am following this and am undecided to either carry a generator or go with lightweight MSR stove pre heater setup.

Both have the potential for multiple-uses, depending on your style. That's generally a consideration for me in choosing gear, whether airplane or otherwise.
The Northern Companion is a great device, with all the attendant cautions about open flame, etc. Consider it if you travel over a lot of remote areas where you might appreciate it for cooking emergency meals and melting water while waiting for help. If you already have a familiarity with MSR stoves, then you can't really beat having one along as part of an emergency kit, and as a camping stove. I regularly fly with one for the above reasons. The XGK's do run fine on 100LL, although I try not to make a regular habit of cooking over leaded flames.
I never fly with a generator, although I do keep a couple staged at my frequent winter landing sites. Obviously a generator is a better fit if you already have a Reiff or Tanis set-up. They will run a Little Buddy-type heater also, which is perhaps the next-best alternative to Reiff or Tanis. A generator may make sense for those people who like their electricity when camping in the backcountry. As far as doubling as emergency equipment, you might need to think about flying with an induction cooktop, or an electric tea kettle.
Given the option to preheat with electricity, I choose my Tanis (or Reiff) over open flame every time, as it's not only safer, but warms the engine much more evenly in the critical areas.
Weight-wise, a Northern Companion with accessories comes in at under 8 lbs. A 1K Honda lists at 29 lbs, and a 2K Honda lists at 46 lbs, plus extension cord and fuel. A Northern Companion is badly overpriced for what you get, but it's still a couple hundred bucks less than a 1K or 2K Honda.
-DP

For those of you with a preference toward using the electric heaters at your backcountry paradise, what sort of runtime do you expect to use for a thorough heat-soaking preheat? Let’s say you have cowl plugs and optionally a cowl cover. Is a thorough preheat realistic or is the idea really assurance of getting an actual start for the trip home before your battery dies? I’ve never considered a generator before and I’m sensitive to any disturbance the noise signature may cause. Even though they are fairly quiet. Obviously a generator has other useful applications.

Earlier in this thread, almost 10 years ago, the Aerotherm system was mentioned and Reiff has frequent mentions too. If you are using a 2000 watt Honda generator, it looks as though the Aerotherm Alien Turbo would be at the power consumption limit you could use. They state a preheat takes 60 minutes. Reiff recommends overnight use and also says a solid temperature gain is made after 2 hours. The blower heater could be used to warm the cabin/avionics and your tent (with a stout breeze)! The Aerotherm looks interesting to me as it is portable, sharable and may take less time to get the job done. Does anyone here use one?

Bushveld wrote:For those of you with a preference toward using the electric heaters at your backcountry paradise, what sort of runtime do you expect to use for a thorough heat-soaking preheat? Let’s say you have cowl plugs and optionally a cowl cover. Is a thorough preheat realistic or is the idea really assurance of getting an actual start for the trip home before your battery dies? I’ve never considered a generator before and I’m sensitive to any disturbance the noise signature may cause. Even though they are fairly quiet. Obviously a generator has other useful applications.

Typically when I'm pre-heating in the field, the OAT has been in the negative teens overnight, and the oil and engine are somewhere in the positive teens from the day before, thanks to good engine and prop covers. I'll give it two hours minimum in these conditions- enough for my oil temp probe which is located high on the case and away from the heat, to come up around 32. At that point, the sump and the cylinders are a good deal hotter. Then let it sit and steep in the heat for up to another hour, to let the high and low spots even out a bit. If I do this, I find that I have to use "Hot Start" procedures, and the engine fires and runs like a summer day. The goal is always to pamper the engine, never to eke out a cold "desperation" start. With that said, you're pissing into the wind preheating by any of these means in the cold if you don't have a good quality engine cover, and ideally, prop and spinner covers too.
I give a Northern Companion a similar amount of time, and get similar results.
I hear you about the sound disturbance. You can control the sound a little bit by aiming the exhaust in the least offensive direction. Snow muffles sound as well. A 1K Honda on eco-throttle gets pretty faint at 100'. BTW, an XGK (the stove in a Northern Companion) isn't quiet either. Some people complain about the sound, but for some of us it's our version of Napalm in the morning I guess.
I have no experience with the Aerotherm, but for any forced air heaters, including Northern Companion, the trick is to provide for air flow to encourage the heat to wash through the engine compartment. e.g., if the Northern Companion is blowing into the lower right side of the engine compartment, expose the left side air intake for the warm airflow to exit.
-DP

I have good cowling cover & insulated prop blade & spinner covers. The prop/spinner covers make quite a bit of difference. 2 hours is a good baseline heat time. I check CHTS & EGT probes on EI, generally 2 hrs will get 100F on those. Magnum Reiff on O-320 with sump & oil cooler pads. Yesterday it was around 0F, and for grins I added 250W heatlamp that I placed in cabin to increase load on Honda 1000 and it did just fine with load. 2 hours & i had 95F CHT and oil temp off peg.

Flyboy-ak has a heated hanger. Don't believe any of his "bush pilot" stories of winter flying. [emoji3]

I think my plane has an oil pan heater but I wouldn't know what for. My mechanic is to lazy to put my plane back together for winter flying.

Thanks for the feedback folks. Point taken on the insulated covers. I don't see myself being out during subzero Fahrenheit conditions, unless a hot tub or sauna are available. Personal minimums and all.

What cowling cover are you guys using?

Thanks.

Frank

fshaw wrote:What cowling cover are you guys using?

Thanks.

Frank

Alaska Wing Covers in cold weather. Linda will work with you to customize it to your needs.

I also have a lighter Aviation Covers that has a heat-reflective foil layer inside it. It's smaller, lighter, and nice for traveling when it's not as cold. Ask for Joang.

-DP