So 5 AMU right now. I see the ADS-B "in" is down to $200 from Open Flight Solutions (you supply the iPad), maybe in the next three years some other innovator can bring the "out" part down. Are all your installs dual band?

MontanaT-craft wrote:One additional thing you might want to consider is that if you would like to cross the border either into Canada or Mexico, you will need to have ADSB out in 2020.

I live in Mexico and have never seen anything saying that. Got a citation?

I am assuming that all border crossings (US) are the same. These are US regulations. If there is a difference between Canadian and Mexican border crossings, I am not familiar with them. Do you not have to deal with the APIS system and get a transponder code for crossing? This would not be the first time that my assumptions have been incorrect.
Charles

I looked into the boarder crossing deal before I nixed the transponder. There is a transponder waiver form from the TSA for boarder crossings. I can't find any rule that says it is restricted to non-electric airplanes and google will reveal a few accounts of people using the waiver in their electric system equipped airplanes.

I believe the "aircraft manufactured without an electric system" is identified in the 2020 mandate so they are not required to comply with the mandate. Now, how they intend to deal with exceptions to the rule, I have no idea. Of course, this takes effect in 2020, not today. They do have time to modify and clarify this rule.
Charles

Karmutzen wrote:So 5 AMU right now. I see the ADS-B "in" is down to $200 from Open Flight Solutions (you supply the iPad), maybe in the next three years some other innovator can bring the "out" part down. Are all your installs dual band?

The Stratus ESG is $2995 before the FAA rebate, and includes WAAS GPS built in. You can add a hardwired Stratus receiver for another $500 to get the ADS-B In (the EGSi model), or use whatever portable receiver (Stratus 2S, DIY, or whatever in between) you like for that part, if you want 'In' at all. So $2500 + installation doesn't seem too terrible, it reuses the existing transponder antenna so you'd need the GPS antenna mounted, and unit wired in. I can't imagine that is another $2500 just to get that part done. It's still a solid bit of cash.

MontanaT-craft wrote:I am assuming that all border crossings (US) are the same. These are US regulations. If there is a difference between Canadian and Mexican border crossings, I am not familiar with them. Do you not have to deal with the APIS system and get a transponder code for crossing? This would not be the first time that my assumptions have been incorrect.

Your first note said going *into* Canada or Mexico. And the rules for those two countries are definitely different. Mostly in minor ways, but still...

Coming into the US the rules are the same, because you are entering the US in either case.

It happens that I'm shopping for a Christen Eagle at the moment and need to answer this question definitely anyway, so I have a request in with the DGAC (Mexico's FAA) for clarification. But I'm not aware of any ADSB rule below 18,000 feet at the moment.

Now, for the ADIZ, today you need a squawk code or a waiver. The planes I'm looking at all have transponders so I can meet the current requirement in that fashion. I found a request to add the ADIZ to the list of ADS-B requirements, but don't have any citation showing that the request was accepted.

For you young'ns who want to wait, claiming that you just won't fly in controlled airspace that currently requires a transponder, or that you'll just ask for a waiver, remember that those spaces are gradually increasing, and waivers are discretionary. How quickly, and to what extent, those chances will go away is anyone's guess. What I'm saying is that there may very well come a time when if you're going to fly, it will be because your airplane is equipped for ADS-B Out, and if you're going to spend the money for Out, you may as spring for In and get all the benefits of the ADS-B system listed below.

For us old farts, perhaps those of us whose flying days are numbered, maybe it won't make much difference--skirting the current areas won't be all that hard for awhile. For myself, I've spent the money, my airplane is equipped with both 978 UAT and 1090 ES, and I quite frankly am very glad to have all of the benefits that the ADS-B system currently offers. That includes (quoting from Wikipedia):

Traffic – When using an ADS-B In system, a pilot is able to view traffic information about surrounding aircraft if those aircraft are equipped with ADS-B out. This information includes altitude, heading, speed, and distance to aircraft. In addition to receiving position reports from ADS-B out participants, TIS-B [USA-only] can provide position reports on non ADS-B out-equipped aircraft if suitable ground equipment and ground radar exist. ADS-R re-transmits ADS-B position reports between UAT and 1090 MHz frequency bands.

Weather – Aircraft equipped with universal access transceiver (UAT) ADS-B In technology will be able to receive weather reports, and weather radar through flight information service-broadcast (FIS-B). [USA-only]

Flight information – Flight information service-broadcast (FIS-B) also transmits readable flight information such as temporary flight restrictions (TFRs) and NOTAMs to aircraft equipped with UAT. [USA-only]

That's where I think those who choose not to equip are shooting themselves in the foot. With the investment in the equipment, the information is available without a subscription, and at this time, it's usable at any reasonable AGL altitude all across the US.

Cary

Cary wrote:For you young'ns who want to wait, claiming that you just won't fly in controlled airspace that currently requires a transponder, or that you'll just ask for a waiver, remember that those spaces are gradually increasing, and waivers are discretionary. How quickly, and to what extent, those chances will go away is anyone's guess. What I'm saying is that there may very well come a time when if you're going to fly, it will be because your airplane is equipped for ADS-B Out, and if you're going to spend the money for Out, you may as spring for In and get all the benefits of the ADS-B system listed below.

For us old farts, perhaps those of us whose flying days are numbered, maybe it won't make much difference--skirting the current areas won't be all that hard for awhile. For myself, I've spent the money, my airplane is equipped with both 978 UAT and 1090 ES, and I quite frankly am very glad to have all of the benefits that the ADS-B system currently offers. That includes (quoting from Wikipedia):

Traffic – When using an ADS-B In system, a pilot is able to view traffic information about surrounding aircraft if those aircraft are equipped with ADS-B out. This information includes altitude, heading, speed, and distance to aircraft. In addition to receiving position reports from ADS-B out participants, TIS-B [USA-only] can provide position reports on non ADS-B out-equipped aircraft if suitable ground equipment and ground radar exist. ADS-R re-transmits ADS-B position reports between UAT and 1090 MHz frequency bands.

Weather – Aircraft equipped with universal access transceiver (UAT) ADS-B In technology will be able to receive weather reports, and weather radar through flight information service-broadcast (FIS-B). [USA-only]

Flight information – Flight information service-broadcast (FIS-B) also transmits readable flight information such as temporary flight restrictions (TFRs) and NOTAMs to aircraft equipped with UAT. [USA-only]

That's where I think those who choose not to equip are shooting themselves in the foot. With the investment in the equipment, the information is available without a subscription, and at this time, it's usable at any reasonable AGL altitude all across the US.

Cary

I don't buy your argument. Depending on where you fly, weather via ADS-B may or may not be available, and in very few if any places is it available on the ground. So, you're sitting at Podunk Airport, wondering what the weather is up ahead, but guess what....no weather from ADS-B on the ground. Last summer, I took a portable ADS-B receiver with me to OSH. Coverage at cub altitudes absolutely sucked until I got into Minnesota. And where I did get weather, I found the radar images to be so pixelated as to be virtually useless around thunderstorms. One area the display showed as no precipitation, but looked dark out the window. I landed for fuel, and looked at the radar display in the office.....that area was all yeppow and orange.

And in the western US, you won't have any coverage below the ridges unless you're right on top of a GBT.

Traffic may have some value, no doubt. But on that trip, I went right past Billing's (charley airspace) and never saw a target displayed, nor did I receive any weather. And I was seeing airplanes out the window.

As to the FAA tightening up the rules to require ADS-B in more airspace, that certainly could happen, but you're missing the whole point of ADS-B: It's a system designed for the FAA to work airliners without having to use radar. I seriously doubt if the FAA gives a rats behind about some cub below the ridges in the Frank.

But maybe.
But I bought a weather receiver from XM at OSH, and while you're sitting on the ground or flying in the middle of Montana with no ADS-B coverage, wondering what that line of thunderstorms is doing, I'll be plugging along with GOOD weather info.
MTV

MontanaT-craft wrote:I am assuming that all border crossings (US) are the same. These are US regulations. If there is a difference between Canadian and Mexican border crossings, I am not familiar with them. Do you not have to deal with the APIS system and get a transponder code for crossing? This would not be the first time that my assumptions have been incorrect.
Charles

ADSB has nothing to do with crossing the border, it will not be required to cross the border in 2020.

Just a thought for those pilots who think their flying days are numbered.
If indeed your days are numbered then most likely you will want to sell your airplane and having ASD-B will certainly make it more valuable than a non equipped one.

BORDERS
Mexico
Our border with Mexico IS an ADIZ. You will need 12" numbers on your plane, even if only temporary numbers. You can request a transponder and/or radio waiver with TSA/FAA.
https://waivers.faa.gov/aap/te_pages.p_login
You will have to file an International flight plan in order to penetrate the ADIZ. You will have to file an eAPIS to cross the border. I have no knowledge of what Mexico requires.

Canada
Our border with Canada is NOT an ADIZ. You do NOT need 12" numbers on your plane. You can request a transponder and/or radio waiver with TSA/FAA - I do for no transponder. If you land and cross the lower 48 border at one of the International turf strips that is both in Canada and the U.S. you do not need to file a flight plan and you do not need to file an eAPIS because you did not fly across the border - you taxied across which is similar to driving a car across. Crossing the Canada/Alaska border you will need to file a flight plan (going either direction) and you will need to file an eAPIS if going into Alaska because there are no International strips that are both in Alaska and in Canada which means you will have to fly across the border.

WEATHER
ADS-B Weather
The weather display is very pixelated and not very detailed. I find it useless for low MVFR flying. In the western U.S. coverage is very poor unless one is flying high and then only when one is not flying IN the mountains but instead ABOVE them.

Cellular-based Weather
The weather we get when looking at Foreflight or Garmin Pilot when connected to the Internet. Both are well detailed. Of the two Garmin pilot has the highest definition which is important for me when flying low MVFR.

XM Weather
I have no experience with it but I understand it is the “gold standard”. If it worked in Alaska I’d have it.

ADS-B MY FINAL THOUGHT
Your N-number is part of ADS-B output. ADS-B will be used for enforcement actions by the FAA for both perceived and actual violations. It will also be used by law enforcement agencies. And it will be used by tax jurisdictions. So add that to the cost of ADS-B installation as well as adding the cost of a subscription to AOPA Pilot Protection Services.

Thank you, Phil. There is so much mis-information out there about ADS-B that it's incredible, so it's good to see facts.

I've compared cell phone radar to ADS-B radar images, and the comparison is sobering.

I can buy XM service for a lot of months for the cost of ADS-B equipment.

MTV

Thanks to those who have corrected my mis-information about border crossings. I am still worried about what will be required in the future but I fell much more comfortable now with the "wait and see" attitude.
Charles

Barnstormer wrote:ADS-B MY FINAL THOUGHT
Your N-number is part of ADS-B output. ADS-B will be used for enforcement actions by the FAA for both perceived and actual violations. It will also be used by law enforcement agencies. And it will be used by tax jurisdictions. So add that to the cost of ADS-B installation as well as adding the cost of a subscription to AOPA Pilot Protection Services.

Any Mode S transponder includes a unique and permanent ICAO hex identifier, which is transmitted along with the squawk code. Here's an example from my ADS-B receiver site. You can see some pop up with an identifier (this is customizable in the transponder), others with just the ICAO ID:



That ICAO ID is then registered to your aircraft. You can go to sites like airframes.org and query against that ICAO to see which aircraft said transponder should be tied to, and anyone can download the database itself. Here's an example searching on the first non-ident'd line from the above example:



Now, Mode A/C-only transponders will not send this ICAO code and only transmit the squawk code, but if you're in a transponder-required airspace after Jan 1, 2020 it's an irrelevant point anyway. If you're outside of mandated airspace and don't want to be visible to everyone with Internet access, just turn off the transponder and it won't send anything. Otherwise it isn't really sending information that any Mode-S-equipped aircraft wasn't already including in its response, since it takes about 5 seconds to cross reference any non-Ident'd aircraft.

If LEO is after you for something, all you're going to do is slow them down. Also remember that even without a transponder, you're still tracked on primary radar as an object moving through the sky, and if you've done something so bad that they're pulling PSR data to figure out where you went, you've already brought the considerable weight of the federal government down on you. AOPA Legal Services is likely the least of your concerns at that point.

I'm all for reducing the amount of information Big Brother has on me, but some of the hype around ADS-B meaning the black vans are going to start showing up is just nuts. If you don't need a transponder where you fly, just leave it out/turn it off, but know that if a PSR site can bounce a radio wave off your plane, you're tracked without ID no matter what. If you do fly in Mode-C+ airspace, the only way you're telling them anything new is if you didn't already have Mode-S, and in a few years it just won't matter unless you plan to ask for a waiver every time you fly there. Border crossings are a special case, and it sounds like that can be easily bypassed for the time being.

I wasn't aware of the cross-border turf fields, that's awesome. I'm surprised there isn't one between Canada and Alaska, but it sounds like you just need a couple guys with bulldozers on either side of the line to flatten some ground and solve that one.

I'm very happy with the ADS-B service I receive. I chose to equip 1090ES (out) and 1090+UAT (in). I'm currently on the gulf coast, so I am aware that getting weather info down to 500-1000' AGL is probably not the norm, which is why I included an XM option in case I move someplace with less coverage.

Regarding Big Brother watching: while I'm not a huge fan, it is also a fact of modern life. The Feds or whoever can track me very easily by the cell phone I keep in my pocket, and I'm not in the habit of removing the battery every time I step into my plane.

Also, just a discussion on turning off transponders/ADS-B, to each his own, but at least be aware that if you are equipped with a transponder (and maintained), it is required to be transmitting if you are in controlled airspace, so turning it off is only an option in Class G (CFR 91.215.c). Furthermore, if ADS-B equipped, it is required to be transmitting at all times (91.225.f). Depending on how you want to fly and your take on following CFR's, that may influence your decision to equip or not. Since I installed a 1090ES transponder for my ADS-B out, per the CFRs I cannot turn my transponder off, even in class G airspace.

I am disgusted at the ADS-B coverage in AK. I bought the GDL-39D and an IPAD because of the weather. I didn't realize it is a ground based system and where I fly (west side of Cook inlet) there are no stations and no plans to put them there. So right where I need the WX it goes away. If I fly to Anchorage it works fine.

FAA stupidity, they should have gone with a satellite based system. If I didn't have to (I am 135) I would not get an ADS-B unit since I can get into Lake Hood just fine.

Now back to the original thread, I will be looking for the least costly unit there is, but not until the winter of 2019/2020.

Headoutdaplane wrote:I am disgusted at the ADS-B coverage in AK. I bought the GDL-39D and an IPAD because of the weather. I didn't realize it is a ground based system and where I fly (west side of Cook inlet) there are no stations and no plans to put them there. So right where I need the WX it goes away. If I fly to Anchorage it works fine.

FAA stupidity, they should have gone with a satellite based system. If I didn't have to (I am 135) I would not get an ADS-B unit since I can get into Lake Hood just fine.

Now back to the original thread, I will be looking for the least costly unit there is, but not until the winter of 2019/2020.

What altitude are you flying?

Headoutdaplane wrote:I am disgusted at the ADS-B coverage in AK. I bought the GDL-39D and an IPAD because of the weather. I didn't realize it is a ground based system and where I fly (west side of Cook inlet) there are no stations and no plans to put them there. So right where I need the WX it goes away. If I fly to Anchorage it works fine.

FAA stupidity, they should have gone with a satellite based system. If I didn't have to (I am 135) I would not get an ADS-B unit since I can get into Lake Hood just fine.

Now back to the original thread, I will be looking for the least costly unit there is, but not until the winter of 2019/2020.

I agree. Unfortunately, as i noted earlier, the system was designed to replace ATC radar (which it's not going to do in the real world) in tracking of aircraft under IFR. For that purpose, minimum altitude for signal guarantee is somewhere around 6000 feet agl. I get nosebleeds up there.

MTV

Headoutdaplane wrote:Now back to the original thread, I will be looking for the least costly unit there is, but not until the winter of 2019/2020.

Hope you can legally do your own ADS-B installation if you wait that long... My local avionics shop has a 6+ month backlog today, and expects it to stay that way through the end of 2019. (And remember, the "real" deadline is Dec 31, 2019, because the rule becomes effective Jan 1, 2020...)