Backcountry Pilot • ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not have?

ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not have?

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Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:45 pm

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

whee wrote:Interesting points and pretty good discussion so far. Thanks guys.

I think I’ll buy a set of Bushwheels instead. :lol:



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NineThreeKilo offline
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Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:58 pm

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

Doesn't matter what screen someone is flying with,if there's no adsb they'll just stare at something else. If you come onto the radar then that opens up the chance of bureaucracy consuming your time and money.
Besides I'm not interested in helping them collect information that will later be used against us in the form of fees,taxes and regulation. Plus I don't feel like most of them understand off airport operations. I also am not interested in them changing rules when my spots get brought to their attention.
And mid air collision is not the reason they created adsb. It's goal is to centralize information for easy use by controllers,inspectors and policy makers.
Great service though if it wasn't used in the manner it can be.
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Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:37 pm

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

whee wrote:Interesting points and pretty good discussion so far. Thanks guys.

I think I’ll buy a set of Bushwheels instead. :lol:


Whee for the WIN :wink:
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Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:22 pm

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

I'll just keep looking out the window, hoping for the best, and thankful I fly where I do.
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Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:35 am

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

Would have saved me the thrill of my mid air.
As far as Gov't surveillance, I''ll bet every one of you with those concerns carries a cell phone in their pocket. Gov't already tracks 100% of what you do.
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Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:15 am

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

flynbeekeeper wrote:Would have saved me the thrill of my mid air.
As far as Gov't surveillance, I''ll bet every one of you with those concerns carries a cell phone in their pocket. Gov't already tracks 100% of what you do.
Tom


I think about your mid air every time I fly and have since you posted about it like a decade ago. It’s what reminds me to keep my eyes outside and when able my climb angles shallow enough I can see where I’m going. It is also a strong motivator for ADSB but it only would have helped if both planes had it.

One of my concerns is non-ADSB planes will become like nordo planes now. Many pilot either forget about them or pretend they don’t exist.
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Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:21 am

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

flynbeekeeper wrote:Would have saved me the thrill of my mid air.
As far as Gov't surveillance, I''ll bet every one of you with those concerns carries a cell phone in their pocket. Gov't already tracks 100% of what you do.
Tom


Often when I’m flying I turn my phone off or put it in airplane mode so it’s not hunting for towers and draining its battery.

This is legal, as is leaving it at home if I feel like it, or even not having a cell phone.


The same can not be said about turning your ADSB off or just not having ADSB in some areas.

If ADSB was like a cell phone, use it if you want the benefits but understand the risks, the sending of the N number would still be creepy and a overreach, but this would be acceptable. What the faa has done is the equivalent of making against the law to not have a active on turned on cell phone in your pocket 24/7.
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Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:24 am

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

I would guess the statistics for head ons haven't changed much since the introduction of adsb. Don't get me wrong, if I was under a vail I would have had it years ago. I guess I'm lucky to live in the wide open spaces and it's easy to sideline when it's a non issue for me.
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Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:26 am

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

flynbeekeeper +1
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Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:02 pm

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

"One of my concerns is non-ADSB planes will become like nordo planes now."

Unpopular opinion: In an era of cheap and effective handheld radios, there is no excuse to be nordo anymore. (there, that should keep the keyboard warriors going for a while :D )
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Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:18 pm

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

rw2 wrote:"One of my concerns is non-ADSB planes will become like nordo planes now."

Unpopular opinion: In an era of cheap and effective handheld radios, there is no excuse to be nordo anymore. (there, that should keep the keyboard warriors going for a while :D )


I never got the nordo hysteria

Besides most people just talk on the radio and don’t listen anyways
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Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:31 pm

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

NineThreeKilo wrote:
rw2 wrote:"One of my concerns is non-ADSB planes will become like nordo planes now."

Unpopular opinion: In an era of cheap and effective handheld radios, there is no excuse to be nordo anymore. (there, that should keep the keyboard warriors going for a while :D )


I never got the nordo hysteria

Besides most people just talk on the radio and don’t listen anyways



Haha, at least this pot stir is a related topic.

On my 2.5hr flight the other day only a small handful of planes were understandable on the radio. The half dozen ag planes, the contractor fire helicopters, and many of the private planes were all unintelligible. Amazingly, the local flight school Cherokees are crystal clear from over 50 miles away.

A large number of airplanes might as well be nordo whether it be from crappy equipment or a pilot that doesn’t hear.
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Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:15 pm

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

whee wrote:
NineThreeKilo wrote:
rw2 wrote:"One of my concerns is non-ADSB planes will become like nordo planes now."

Unpopular opinion: In an era of cheap and effective handheld radios, there is no excuse to be nordo anymore. (there, that should keep the keyboard warriors going for a while :D )


I never got the nordo hysteria

Besides most people just talk on the radio and don’t listen anyways



Haha, at least this pot stir is a related topic.

On my 2.5hr flight the other day only a small handful of planes were understandable on the radio. The half dozen ag planes, the contractor fire helicopters, and many of the private planes were all unintelligible. Amazingly, the local flight school Cherokees are crystal clear from over 50 miles away.

A large number of airplanes might as well be nordo whether it be from crappy equipment or a pilot that doesn’t hear.


I’d say 70% of 91 and 80% of 135 just talks, zero listening ears on, 121 MIGHT give one in the blind transmission.

Trying to coordinate with them is pointless, they just make mindless announcements and can’t do 2 way communication worth a shit on ctaf

But will “reeeee” like no ones business over the idea of nordo lol

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Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:41 pm

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

Having just landed in Grants Pass today on a crosscountry from northern MN. The smoke situation from western Montana all the way to GP was bad. To bring this post on topic, I have to agree with the comment about 90% of transmissions We heard were unintelligible. A few sounded like possible bad radios or whatever, but the majority were just plain bad talking or soft spoken people. Dang people...speak up and speak clearly! I may have bad hearing, but ANR and turned up volume doesn't cure those that can't speak clearly. Ironically, no offense meant, but some of the clearest were from females.

The foreign students, well we'll talk about them over a beer.

Back to ADS-B, I wasn't sure if I would get it installed, but after flying in the smoky west yesterday and today, it sure was nice seeing traffic on the tablet that's impossible to see in the limited visibility we were flying in. VFR legal, but the haze sure put a stressor factor that was lessened by the capability of seeing them on the tablet.
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Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:01 pm

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

WWhunter wrote:Ironically, no offense meant, but some of the clearest were from females.

.


Ab-so-lutely! Women are far clearer on the radio on average. It seems that many men have this internalized idea of how a dude is supposed to sound on a radio. Whether aviation or marine, so many men speak in mumbled voices under their breath as though they’re discussing a hot waitress to their buddy with their wife sitting at the next table. Not sure where that originated, but it’s epidemic in Alaska.

Speak. Clearly. And loudly, please.
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Sat Aug 14, 2021 8:35 am

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

Brian M wrote:
WWhunter wrote:Ironically, no offense meant, but some of the clearest were from females.

.


Ab-so-lutely! Women are far clearer on the radio on average. It seems that many men have this internalized idea of how a dude is supposed to sound on a radio. Whether aviation or marine, so many men speak in mumbled voices under their breath as though they’re discussing a hot waitress to their buddy with their wife sitting at the next table. Not sure where that originated, but it’s epidemic in Alaska.

Speak. Clearly. And loudly, please.


It's usually the hot sidetone audio that lets us feel like we're narrating a cinematic feature film. I've been guilty of it. When the sidetone isnt so clear or intercom is lower, I'm probably a l'ot more intelligible because I instinctively use more midrange in my voice to cut through.

What was this thread about?
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Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:02 am

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

My too sense:

- If you can't efficiently manage a single gps screen with ADS-B traffic targets at the same time as effectively being "eyes outside", it's time to give up your pilot certificate.

- Yesterday I heard someone on the radio say "Nxxxxx, Gibraltar Lake, Direction of Flight: East; Altitude: 3 thousand 5 hundred feet" and thought that was a unique way of phrasing it.

- I've been flying floats in the same part of southwest Alaska for 3 years now. Still haven't figured out where the hell a common reporting point is for the fishing lodge beavers named "Goat hole". At first I thought it was "Boat hull". I figure once I learn where that's at, I'll have all the secrets and will quit flying in this area and get a job elsewhere. A lake our lodge calls "Fun" lake (because it's not fun), others call "Just enough", and I've started to realize that maybe others call it "funnel pothole".
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Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:29 am

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

Zzz wrote:
Brian M wrote:
WWhunter wrote:Ironically, no offense meant, but some of the clearest were from females.

.


Ab-so-lutely! Women are far clearer on the radio on average. It seems that many men have this internalized idea of how a dude is supposed to sound on a radio. Whether aviation or marine, so many men speak in mumbled voices under their breath as though they’re discussing a hot waitress to their buddy with their wife sitting at the next table. Not sure where that originated, but it’s epidemic in Alaska.

Speak. Clearly. And loudly, please.


It's usually the hot sidetone audio that lets us feel like we're narrating a cinematic feature film. I've been guilty of it. When the sidetone isnt so clear or intercom is lower, I'm probably a l'ot more intelligible because I instinctively use more midrange in my voice to cut through.

What was this thread about?


Uhhhhhhhh, dont tell me how to talk lol

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Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:37 am

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

NBAA administers the Limited Aircraft Data Display registry program. It doesn't block the goverment from seeing your data. It doesn't block Joe Schmoe's ADS-B recever from getting your Mode S (which can be tied to the FAA registration database). But it does prohibit flight tracking services like Flightaware and Flightradar24 from tagging your data and providing flight history. Only your aircraft type shows up on the screen.

Other than privacy and the order of magnitude increase in enforcement capability (see Martha Lunken's story), the same kind of arguments against ADS-B (over-dependence on the equipment, distraction, expense etc.) can be made against radios, flight following, and charts. It's a tool. A really powerful tool. Think about those tragic midairs that have been discussed here the last few years, at places and events a lot of us like to go to. They never should have happened, but they did. Even deep in a canyon or out in the desert, far from the nearest ground station, ADS-B ship-to-ship would have provided warnings and superior SA.

Just the other day, I had a target screaming up right at me at my 6:00 going 250 kts. We weren't on the same frequency, and he was either not aware of us or trying to intercept and scare the $hit out of us, so I took evasive action and he blew on by.

My family was with me. Before you decide not to equip with ADS-B, you might ask your wife and kids if they'd feel better about getting in the airplane with ADS-B. And, btw, Foreflight has a free "passenger" app that allows them to see the same display that's on your iPad. They are already looking real hard out the window for traffic. This helps them spot it.

My $.02
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Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:12 am

Re: ADSB: Don't Need it, don't want it but unsafe to not hav

asa wrote:My too sense:

- If you can't efficiently manage a single gps screen with ADS-B traffic targets at the same time as effectively being "eyes outside", it's time to give up your pilot certificate.


It's not a matter of ability.....it's a matter of diligence. I've flown with far too many pilots who spend an inordinate amount of time staring at screens. I've seen far too many cockpits with "displays" blocking a significant portion of the view out front.

I totally agree that ADS-B CAN and MAY be a great tool. But, like anything else, a tool is only as effective and as helpful as it's user.

Not long ago, I was flying (very loose) formation with three other aircraft (three of us had ADS-B out, the other Xponder only)....in a canyon (not a small canyon, BTW). It was smoky, so it was hard to keep the others in sight consistently. Look inside at the iPad for the traffic, and there'd be two out there. Next time, there'd be one, next time, three. Others were having the same situation. THAT did not give me a warm fuzzy that this stuff is reliable for collision avoidance. These were all different brands of ADS-B transmitters.

Targets would come and go throughout that flight. Wasn't till we got in range of a GBT that all three consistently showed up. And, all three were in sight the whole time.

Safety equipment? Maybe.

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