I've been thinking about adsb lately and wondering if I'm now less safe because of it.

I've related two stories previously where I've ended up close enough to other aircraft that I could clearly see the pilot staring at their tablet. Both times in close proximity to an airport with me making radio calls and them saying nothing.

Last week I made a maintenance flight and it was pretty smokey out. Flew at sorta low level at the highest power possible in 4 mile visibility. The whole time I'm thinking 'there is no way I'd be able to see anyone in this smoke and they probably aren't even looking for me.'

Today I'm flying, 9000msl, 150mph (good tail wind) when I spot a C208 a bit above me and off to the side. I think, " I wonder if he sees me?" I make a couple radio calls but get no response. He passes fairly close, maybe/maybe not legal separation but he's clearly going to pass in front and a bit above me. I get home and pull up the ADSB track for his flight; 9400msl and 190mph where we crossed paths. Maybe he saw me but I doubt it since I was to his right and below him.

That makes 3 somewhat close encounters in 2 years, all identified visually. In the prior 10 or 12 years of flying, I had experienced 1 close encounter. Maybe my eyes are getting better or maybe instead of two pilots looking for other planes it's just one.

I'm thinking I'm less safe in the current environment where ADSB equipped pilots don't look outside as vigilantly as they used to because they expect all airplanes to pop up on their screen. Maybe I need to quip so I will be seen.

However, privacy is a concern.

I somewhat enjoy stalking my sister-in-law via ADSB. I get an alert every time she flies. Sometimes I'll text her and say stuff like "Hey, you actually pushed the throttle in and got some speed today" or "Hope you had a great time in X" or "Almost busted the Bravo again, eh." It's kinda fun.

A friend flew to OSH this year and I thought it would be fun to stalk him. I didn't know his N number but he had told me he would be flying with another guy in a Husky. In about 2 minutes I looked up the few Huskies that had flown in a certain area and easily identified the one I was looking for. I tracked their flight across a few states and texted my buddy a few times about where they were and how it was going. I know, totally creepy. The next day he had activated the anonymous mode on his buddy's tail beacon, but that only works if the transponder is getting interrogated and squawking 1200. Occasionally I'd get a tracking alert when he'd get flight following or when he was tuned to 1200 but there was no radar in the area to interrogate the transponder. So I was still sorta knew where they were but couldn't poke fun at how slow they were flying etc.

All that is with free ADSB access. If you pay for ADSB data access then much more data is available.

So, I don't know what to do. I don't need ADSB where I fly but I don't want to get killed by some pilot staring at foreflight. I don't want to get stalked even though I know how it can be fun to be the stalker.

I can make a pretty good guess at what most of you are going to say but I thought the conversation could be interesting and I'm hoping for a new perspective that will tip me one way or another.

So, you just don’t want to see the one that hits you coming? Cause then, you’ll be staring at an iPad?

Lotsa non ADS-B equipped planes out there.

MTV

ADSB is like autopilots, excellent tool, like there is no question, IF it’s used properly and not used as a crutch.

The other big safety issue with ADSB is lots of the units send your N number out, some will send a generic N0 when set to VFR, but all send your actual N number when on a squawk, reminding the class that the S in ADSB is indeed for surveillance not for safety, safety wise there is no reason for it to send any individual identification, all it should send IMO would be the basic telemetry, category and basic weight (wake turbulence).


So if used as a aid, not a crutch in finding other traffic, and for weather info, when set to not send your N number, ADSB is great.


Fun little image

Here’s the radars in the US (lower 48) their range circles were based on current pubic data for radars and the JSS, not factoring non straight line distance issues



Here are all the ADSB towers




As someone who flys IFR a good bit, I haven’t seen much of any improvement in service or MVAs with having the mandated tracking device in my plane. I have witnessed it get used by karens in frivolous noise complaint, by people to snoop on others, and though not first hand in gov enforcement actions

https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/articl ... ds-b-data/

whee wrote:I'm thinking I'm less safe in the current environment where ADSB equipped pilots don't look outside as vigilantly as they used to because they expect all airplanes to pop up on their screen. Maybe I need to quip so I will be seen.

If you don’t need it…..don’t get it. Can it make it safer, I think so. I turned my nose up at all this ADSB crap for a long time. The plane we acquired had it and I just muted it out. Never used Foreflight cause the map and supplement was all I needed coupled with my badass eagle eye vision. After all I spend my working days in a B-737 NG with all this whizz bang crap why would I want to deal with learning a new convenience item I never wanted in our plane to begin with.

Then something bad almost happened and after talking to some folks about how the ADSB works as well as demonstrating Foreflight. I got on the bandwagon and use it. Does it show every airplane, nope but it’s alerted me many times now to overtaking traffic that I would have never seen otherwise. It’s another tool to enhance safety but not replace the eyeballs, just to aid them.

Seems whenever anyone says they have ADSB a big contingent of folks immediately assume every pilot who has it does nothing but stare at the screen and drool. Then hurl insults on how they should LOOK OUTSIDE. Come on! Just incorporate a quick glance during your normal scan of the instruments and outside. Besides is glancing at the traffic screen any different then studying the map, nav log, ea6b, knee board and screwing with gps…etc. I watched a video of a young “star STOL expert and champion” who had a GoPro on his strut filming himself and another guy flying around, didn’t know pilots did lots of texting on the phone while low level flying and water skiing. Pretty cringeworthy. I would feel really safe playing bush pilot in the Knik River area on a sunny weekend after seeing video.

As far as privacy is concerned. I don’t give a sh#t who sees my flight profiles. After flying airliners for two decades everything I do is monitored. I try not to do any nefarious activities so I don’t worry about it. But also respect someone’s choice to not want their info out in cyber land.

I use it as a safety tool, but emphasize it doesn’t show everything. I disagree with your quote above in this post. I have ADSB and Foreflight and I still look outside.

For those of us who recall the initial days of TCAS, everyone became an "armchair" ATC controller and stopped looking outside. As some said earlier its a resource/tool but NOT a replacement for proper airmanship and vigilance.

I found the airline pilots did very well around the many B airspace international and regional airports where my pipeline ran within 100' parallel, crossed runways including parallel runways on the airport, or both. At Cincinnati Northern Kentucky, I crossed the East West runway on a main line to Toledo. At Hamilton, I circled back around on a jet fuel line and crossed the West parallel to take a jet fuel line to the tank farm between the parallel runways and then turn back west. That was the only place the controller got armchaired on a regular basis. The controller who was often there would answer, 'I've got TCAS" with "He's 50' off the trees. He's not traffic." Had I screwed up and continued to the East parallel runway, their vorticies on round out would have got me but no collision. I really was 50' off the trees there.

For Whee, 200' or below works without ADSB should you decide not to install it. It is where aviation is going, however. I think no electricity and never had it still works. Why do people screw with absolute stealth by adding a rear case, generator, and starter? I flew lots of those...low not high. High is scary in Busy airspace.

I've got ADSB on my 180, and I think often about removing it. The only reason I installed it was because friends have a hangar at KSTP, and we did my annual there one year, and I often fly over 10,000 when I'm flying to get somewhere. I really don't like the tracking, I'd prefer to be able to go about my merry way without someone knowing where I went, how fast I flew, the route I took, and how high I flew.
And, I got a nastygram from the FAA because my ADSB signal was not up to there spec, there was an ADSB signal but it blipped out now and then, but other traffic in the area was picking up my signal. Any more hassles and I'll just remove mine.

Inattentional Blindness. Just because it is on a screen doesn't mean the pilot will see it. That they will see everything presented on a screen is a glaring assumption all the TV fliers make. The more you know the more afraid of those relying on ipads for collision avoidance you become.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGQmdoK_ZfY

StillLearning wrote:I've got ADSB on my 180, and I think often about removing it. The only reason I installed it was because friends have a hangar at KSTP, and we did my annual there one year, and I often fly over 10,000 when I'm flying to get somewhere. I really don't like the tracking, I'd prefer to be able to go about my merry way without someone knowing where I went, how fast I flew, the route I took, and how high I flew.
And, I got a nastygram from the FAA because my ADSB signal was not up to there spec, there was an ADSB signal but it blipped out now and then, but other traffic in the area was picking up my signal. Any more hassles and I'll just remove mine.

As much as you may want to remove it, you can’t. Once installed it has to stay.

G44 wrote:

StillLearning wrote:I've got ADSB on my 180, and I think often about removing it. The only reason I installed it was because friends have a hangar at KSTP, and we did my annual there one year, and I often fly over 10,000 when I'm flying to get somewhere. I really don't like the tracking, I'd prefer to be able to go about my merry way without someone knowing where I went, how fast I flew, the route I took, and how high I flew.
And, I got a nastygram from the FAA because my ADSB signal was not up to there spec, there was an ADSB signal but it blipped out now and then, but other traffic in the area was picking up my signal. Any more hassles and I'll just remove mine.

As much as you may want to remove it, you can’t. Once installed it has to stay.

Not true, Kurt. Once installed it must be ON during any flight. But, like ANY piece of avionics, it can be legally removed (as in paperwork and weight/balance done) by an A/P mechanic. If it fails, it has to be disabled and placarded, just like any other piece of equipment. Nothing in the reg says it can’t be removed once installed.

MTV

I was an early adopter of ADSB out because I live close to a Class B airport and most of my flights go through the 30 mile veil, so it was required. Once installed, I was astounded by the amount of traffic on the screen that I never saw with my eyes. I don't fly with my eyes glued to the screen. My software (iFly GPS) flashes an alert when traffic gets close enough to be a concern. I do check the alerts to see where the traffic is, and if I can't see the traffic when looking out the window, I change course or altitude to eliminate any chance of conflict. There are lots of planes out there (especially on weekends) that don't fly standard east/west altitudes and don't fly normal patterns around airports. Google tracks my position through my cell phone, so I don't feel ADSB is compromising my anonymity any more than normal. I do believe that ADSB gives me more situational awareness without taking my attention away from flying the plane or keeping my attention where it needs to be. The information provided helps me protect myself from bad actors and that makes it worthwhile to me even if it wasn't required. Anybody that tracks me will become bored pretty quickly.

When I'm flying for work I'm often accused of having eagle eyes as I almost always spot other traffic before the other crewmember regardless of how we are made aware of it, TCAS, ATC traffic calls, or just the MkI eyeballs. (Which aren't nearly as good as they used to be) That might be the result of flying GA in the high traffic density NE or flying gliders in close proximity thermalling, or a strong sense of self preservation.

All that said, even while still spending most of my time looking outside to see and avoid, I may acquire another plane visually first 1 out of 50 times that I see it after being made aware of them by ADS-B. I have ADS-B out and am usually in radar and ADS-B tower coverage so "most" traffic is displayed on the ipad. I would love to think that I can see other traffic earlier and more often than any traffic display system but I would be lying to others and more importantly myself. Thinking you're more unsafe because others have ADS-B is a stretch at best. Any pilot careless enough to blindly follow ADS-B traffic only and not be looking outside as well also wouldn't be looking for you outside without it installed either. The really scary part is suddenly being made aware of how much traffic you weren't seeing while looking out the windows without the traffic aids, not to mention all the blind spots where you'll never see them. The big sky theory starts getting shrinkage real quick.

I’m a new pilot, I don’t stare at my screens, but I like ADSB. I like other planes being able to see me, and it helps as stated above, it is part of the typical scan. I fly low and slow, so looking outside is 90% of the fun anyway. I also get an audible alert if the paths are going to come close to intersecting.

I laugh at anyone who says they don’t want to be watched. If you think your smart phone is not listening to everything you say, your are kidding yourself. If you think big brother is not monitoring you, you are kidding yourself. THE ONLY way the statement of “I don’t want to be tracked” has any credibility is if you typed it form an untraceable internet cafe (they don’t exist btw), Unless you have a non-GPS flip phone you are being tracked.

Get over it and get ADSB and we will all be safer.

The safety point about sending your personal info is the same as “I didn’t think I cared for ADSB until I almost didn’t see a guy”

Once you have the security issue with a private or public entity it changes your opinion

Per the cell phone tracking, you can always turn it off, not so much flying work ADSB, also that thought process is like saying “oh crap I’m 15lbs overweight, well might as well just keep eat more junk and not exercising at all now”

I think with what we have seen over last few years, cancel culture, covid, “patriot act”, John and Martha king at gun point, the rise of the karens, and so on, it should demonstrate the importance of broadcasting as little as you can across the board

NineThreeKilo wrote:The safety point about sending your personal info is the same as “I didn’t think I cared for ADSB until I almost didn’t see a guy”

Once you have the security issue with a private or public entity it changes your opinion

Per the cell phone tracking, you can always turn it off, not so much flying work ADSB, also that thought process is like saying “oh crap I’m 15lbs overweight, well might as well just keep eat more junk and not exercising at all now”

I think with what we have seen over last few years, cancel culture, covid, “patriot act”, John and Martha king at gun point, the rise of the karens, and so on, it should demonstrate the importance of broadcasting as little as you can across the board

OK, I am laughing at this.

In the late 1980’s I had some very good friends that worked for alphabet companies, I was hesitant to get a concealed license because I did not want to get finger printed. They laughed at me as I was working out of the country and went to some out of the way 3rd world countries, they said the FBI file on me was 100% very extensive. IF you think that anyone with a pilots license is not be watched you are kidding yourself.

The government is a data collection entity, you ARE being watched.

Just make us all safer

Utah-Jay wrote:In the late 1980’s I had some very good friends that worked for alphabet companies

Corollary (as someone who briefly worked for an alphabet agency): If you think they are any more effective or efficient than the DMV, you're fooling yourself.

gdflys wrote:When I'm flying for work I'm often accused of having eagle eyes as I almost always spot other traffic before the other crewmember regardless of how we are made aware of it, TCAS, ATC traffic calls, or just the MkI eyeballs. (Which aren't nearly as good as they used to be) That might be the result of flying GA in the high traffic density NE or flying gliders in close proximity thermalling, or a strong sense of self preservation.

All that said, even while still spending most of my time looking outside to see and avoid, I may acquire another plane visually first 1 out of 50 times that I see it after being made aware of them by ADS-B. I have ADS-B out and am usually in radar and ADS-B tower coverage so "most" traffic is displayed on the ipad. I would love to think that I can see other traffic earlier and more often than any traffic display system but I would be lying to others and more importantly myself. Thinking you're more unsafe because others have ADS-B is a stretch at best. Any pilot careless enough to blindly follow ADS-B traffic only and not be looking outside as well also wouldn't be looking for you outside without it installed either. The really scary part is suddenly being made aware of how much traffic you weren't seeing while looking out the windows without the traffic aids, not to mention all the blind spots where you'll never see them. The big sky theory starts getting shrinkage real quick.

Yeah, maybe. Walk around any large collection of aircraft and note all the mounting brackets for "devices" that appear ABOVE the glareshield. Some of these folks are in fact flying via virtual reality, frankly. I knew a pretty short guy with a 185 who had THREE large devices mounted on top of the glareshield. Former military pilot, current airline pilot. I can't figure out how he could possibly see ANYthing out front.

And, I've seen similar examples, though not quite as extreme. Put an iPad up above the glareshield and you've just blocked a big part of your vision. Put one on your kneeboard, and your "scan" becomes more a case of staring at your crotch.

ALL ADS-B IN systems SHOULD require some sort of aural warning. But, then, depending on how the parameters are set.....you may spend a lot of time staring at that iPad.

I flew glass cockpit Pipers and Cessnas for seven years that were equipped with traffic awareness. These airplanes all had very large multifunction displays, and warning alerts. But, we still spent a LOT of time in busy airspace staring at those MFDs trying to find the "offending" traffic. These were primitive systems, and one fault was that the systems didn't consider altitude. So, they'd alert to a plane that was 4000 feet above, and no threat at all.

I'm still skeptical. My system doesn't include an aural alert. I almost never look at the iPad as a result.

MTV

I'd love to see a study using eyeball trackers(record exactly where you are looking and for how long) on GA pilots that love TV screens but swear they don't look at them much. Methinks we'd all be scared silly by the results.

For NOE, the Army taught us to move our head a bit, stop, move again, etc. Seemed to help in Huey (two pilots) and in Ag in the field. If we stare straight ahead, the things we don't see until close are scary. And we can miss stuff straight ahead. I flew a Stearman into wires in the open with poles in the open straight ahead. Big Hamilton Standard cut them, but I felt like an idiot.

GB wrote:I'd love to see a study using eyeball trackers(record exactly where you are looking and for how long) on GA pilots that love TV screens but swear they don't look at them much. Methinks we'd all be scared silly by the results.

Precisely my point. In those glass cockpit planes, I tried really hard to fly heads up as much as possible, but spent waaay more time staring at those screens than I liked, looking for traffic.

MTV