Hammer wrote:...Another super woods caliber is the .22 WRM...more energy at 100 yards than the .22 LR makes at the muzzle and negligible recoil, plus the ammo doesn't weigh much. Unfortunately the handguns made in that round are either close range "defensive" weapons, or heavy-for-caliber revolvers. Not much point in carrying a .22 WRM if a .357 weighs about the same. .22 WRM is another round that would be great in a 4" revolver made from scandium and titanium, but as of yet I think they only make it in a 2" barrel. I guess people who walk the woods are a small portion of the handgun buying market.

A friend of mine who's a pretty hard core gunny recently bought a Keltec ( ) PMR-30--
poly-construction 22 mag semi-auto, lightweight but kinda big, and goofy looking to boot.
Not his usual sort of weapon, but he says it shoots like a house afire.

Hey Whee,
Is this the same .22 you inherited...High Standard HD Military? Count yourself lucky if you did!

No shit. In reference to the outhouse quote

Hammer wrote:Hey Whee,
Is this the same .22 you inherited...High Standard HD Military? Count yourself lucky if you did!

That’s the pistol my grandpa has. I haven’t inherited it because he is still alive.

I've had two 40 Glocks (one full size and one short barrel ) but now have the 9 model 19. Just more comfortable shooting the 9 with more accuracy. For carry I have a 380 Walther PPK and a S&W Bodyguard. Like the Glock the best. Bond's PPK sure is a fine gun though.

I've really enjoyed this thread and appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts and experiences. It's given me lots to think about.

Here's my reality: I have no plans to carry all the time.This is just a woods gun which primary function would is to give me a warm fuzzy. I'm not going to spend enough time at the range to put a meaningful number of rounds thought it. What that means to me is that I won't be proficient enough to use it for anything other than finishing off a big game animal but it may make me feel better when in wolf or bear country.

When I think about that I wonder if it is even a good idea for me to own an pistol. But I think most gun owners are more similar to me than to those of you that shoot thousands of rounds per year. This is certainly the case with everyone I know that is a gun owner.

At this point I just need to get out and shoot various guns and calibers.

whee wrote:I've really enjoyed this thread and appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts and experiences. It's given me lots to think about.

Here's my reality: I have no plans to carry all the time.This is just a woods gun which primary function would is to give me a warm fuzzy. I'm not going to spend enough time at the range to put a meaningful number of rounds thought it. What that means to me is that I won't be proficient enough to use it for anything other than finishing off a big game animal but it may make me feel better when in wolf or bear country.

When I think about that I wonder if it is even a good idea for me to own an pistol. But I think most gun owners are more similar to me than to those of you that shoot thousands of rounds per year. This is certainly the case with everyone I know that is a gun owner.

At this point I just need to get out and shoot various guns and calibers.

You're more realistic than most, Whee.

Take this from a guy who's been carrying handguns in the woods since he was twelve-years-old:

Warm Fuzzy's is why most people carry handguns, and that (and a sore back and a staggering amount of legal and personal liability) is all they ever get from their leg-iron. Fact is that the VAST majority of people who aren't in law enforcement will never need a handgun, and that's triple-true for the backcountry user.

If you're not a "gun person", in that you get enjoyment out of learning to shoot well, then at best it's nothing but extra weight, and at worst it's the one decision in your life you'll regret for as long as you breath. It's probably worth mentioning that not just a few people accidentally shoot themselves or a loved one with their trusty hand-cannon, and every one of them was surprised when it happened. Carrying a handgun is not a risk-free proposition, and cannot be made into one.

A handgun in the backcountry lets you hunt food...IF you're a good enough shot, and want or need to hunt food in the first place.

A handgun in the backcountry lets you protect yourself from predatory people...IF you have the mindset and willingness to kill another human before they prove their intent to harm you, at which point it's probably too late... AND the skill to use your weapon under immense stress.

A handgun in the backcountry lets you defend yourself against predatory or aggressive wildlife...IF you have a weapon of sufficient caliber... AND the skill to use it under immense stress.

Beyond that, a handgun might make you feel more secure, but unless you're truly expert with your firearm, that feeling of security is false, and it comes at the expense of having to lug a handgun and the associated legal and personal liability around. I seem to remember that you have children? Well, if kids are around a gun either has to be ON your person, or in a secure and locked container, which is just one more thing to think about on the picnic. Nobody thinks it'll happen to their child, but it does.

Wolves are intimidating, but they're no threat at all to bipeds. Critically wounded men have chased wolves off a kill by just managing to stand erect and advance on them. Bears and moose can be a threat, but you really have to be on your game if you want to protect yourself from a predatory bear or an angry moose with just a handgun...it has to be somewhat powerful, and you have to be able to shoot it with true combat expertise. Luck might get you by, and luck definitely counts, but if you're counting on luck rather than training and skill I'd forgo the weight and inconvenience of a handgun. Luck cuts both ways, after all.

Frankly, a can of bear spray does everything other than harvest food IMMENSELY better than a handgun for the VAST majority of people, at much less cost, weight, danger to themselves and their loved ones, and legal liability.

If you want to cary a gun regardless, then I'd buy the lightest gun you can possibly find...probably one of the S&W titanium and scandium revolvers.

My top pick would be the S&W 317 kit gun: it's a 8-shot .22 LR that weighs less than 12 ounces and has enough barrel to give you acceptable hunting accuracy. A .22 is a lot more shootable just because you don't blow everybody's ears out if you want to shoot a box of shells while out on a picnic. You can shoot a .22 places where a larger caliber would be inappropriate because of the noise signature...and that's especially true for the subsonic .22 longs or shorts, which are not much louder than a pellet gun. Use bottle caps and golf balls for targets and you'll be amazed how accurate a handgun can be with practice.

Hunting with a handgun can be extremely rewarding. Some of the finest days of my youth were spent hunting rabbits and grouse...especially grouse...with a .22 revolver. I only took head or neck shots, and I could get a grouse out to 20 yards and a rabbit out to 30 yards pretty regularly...with teenage eyes. I hunted a lot as a young man (grew up in Bannock County, BTW), and I never found a more enjoyable or rewarding hunting experience. It really made me wonder why people waste their time hunting deer.

A .22 is plenty of gun to put a wounded deer or elk down with a head shot, and it won't splatter blood all over your face like some calibers will. A .22 might not be a great combat round, but it will kill a man as dead as any other weapon if you can hit where you're aiming. I wouldn't recommend one for bear protection, but like I said earlier, without out combat expertise I wouldn't recommend any gun for bear protection. If you turn out to be the first person in the US to be attacked by a wolf, a .22 will kill it, if you do your job with the front sight and trigger.

Best part is you'd have a handgun light enough to cary, that you could actually do something useful with.

Or just skip the whole mess and buy a can of bear spray and a couple hundred gallons of avgas...

I agree with pretty much everything your post Hammer. Those points are some of the reasons why I haven't purchased a pistol previously.

Bear spray is a done deal.

Just a couple points on why I've ruled out some some calibers. In order to put down a wounded big game animal in ID the weapon used to put it down has to be legal for that hunt. Rim fire rounds are not legal to hunt big came with in ID and therefore a .22 pistol is illegal to use to put down a wounded animal. I also enjoy a "short range" weapon hunt which rules are:it is unlawful for hunters to use any weapon other than a muzzleloader, archery equipment, crossbow, a shotgun using slugs or shot of size #00 buck or larger, or a pistol using straight-walled cartridges not originally developed for rifles. This makes something like a .357sig not right for me.

IDK, maybe I won't buy a pistol. No point in wasting money on something I'll never be proficient enough to use.

whee wrote:I agree with pretty much everything your post Hammer. Those points are some of the reasons why I haven't purchased a pistol previously.

Bear spray is a done deal.

Just a couple points on why I've ruled out some some calibers. In order to put down a wounded big game animal in ID the weapon used to put it down has to be legal for that hunt. Rim fire rounds are not legal to hunt big came with in ID and therefore a .22 pistol is illegal to use to put down a wounded animal. I also enjoy a "short range" weapon hunt which rules are:it is unlawful for hunters to use any weapon other than a muzzleloader, archery equipment, crossbow, a shotgun using slugs or shot of size #00 buck or larger, or a pistol using straight-walled cartridges not originally developed for rifles. This makes something like a .357sig not right for me.

IDK, maybe I won't buy a pistol. No point in wasting money on something I'll never be proficient enough to use.

The .357 is straight walled and wasn't originally developed for rifles.

Hammer wrote:...IF you have the mindset and willingness to kill another human before they prove their intent to harm you...

I take extreme exception to this comment.
Needing to have a kill-if-necessary mindset, yes.
But kill another human being before you KNOW that your life is actually in danger?
That's not only morally wrong but extremely prosecutable:
"I thought he might get after me so I shot him, your honor". "Oh, OK, case closed".
Don't think that's how it would go in court.

hotrod180 wrote:

Hammer wrote:...IF you have the mindset and willingness to kill another human before they prove their intent to harm you...

I take extreme exception to this comment.
Needing to have a kill-if-necessary mindset, yes.
But kill another human being before you KNOW that your life is actually in danger?
That's not only morally wrong but extremely prosecutable:
"I thought he might get after me so I shot him, your honor". "Oh, OK, case closed".
Don't think that's how it would go in court.

You can know your life is in danger well before your assailant proves it.
IE I don't need to wait until he shoots me before I shoot him.

That's why its justified if you reasonably feared for your life vs waiting until the person actively tries to take your life.

Honestly Whee, it sounds like a handgun is a rather silly expenditure of money for you. I mean, if you don't really enjoy shooting, what's it giving you?

If you're not really into hand-gunning, I can't see a single reason to use one in a "short range weapon" hunt when so many other, better weapons are allowed.

As for dispatching game...the Idaho law regarding .22's for killing wounded animals is ridiculous and unenforcible, and I wouldn't have a single qualm with violating it, providing you're taking head shots. If a .22 meets your needs and desires otherwise, I wouldn't give it a second thought. Besides, if you do your job with the rifle, you won't have to.

There's no absolute best answer here...most of us figure things out by doing or just move on to something else and forget about it.

Good luck!

whee wrote:I agree with pretty much everything your post Hammer. Those points are some of the reasons why I haven't purchased a pistol previously.

Bear spray is a done deal.

Just a couple points on why I've ruled out some some calibers. In order to put down a wounded big game animal in ID the weapon used to put it down has to be legal for that hunt. Rim fire rounds are not legal to hunt big came with in ID and therefore a .22 pistol is illegal to use to put down a wounded animal. I also enjoy a "short range" weapon hunt which rules are:it is unlawful for hunters to use any weapon other than a muzzleloader, archery equipment, crossbow, a shotgun using slugs or shot of size #00 buck or larger, or a pistol using straight-walled cartridges not originally developed for rifles. This makes something like a .357sig not right for me.

IDK, maybe I won't buy a pistol. No point in wasting money on something I'll never be proficient enough to use.

If you never practice and you just want the warm fuzzy, just buy a Remington or Mossberg shotgun, then cut it down to 1" longer than the legal length.

You will feel super warm and fuzzy carrying it, if you need food because you are stuck somewhere, it will absolutely do the job, and if you have it over your shoulder, bad people will probably think twice.

If it's all about warm fuzzy and presenting to bad people, I think shotgun is the tool for you.

Besides, with a shotgun you can clay pidgin shoot, which is actually a LOT of fun.

There is a good rule to use for selecting a handgun. It must A. fit your hand naturally and B. it naturally points correctly for you skeletal setup. This takes picking up and pointing a whole range of pistols. Kind of why you see such elaborate grips on olympic target shooting pistols. For me, I learned, as a kid, to shoot the good old Colt .45 auto. However, years later, I got a Sig P220, big difference in score over the Colt, when taken from hip to target. It points better for me. NOAA gave us Glocks and I can't hit anything smaller than a garbage can with it. When I did my quals every year, I always used my Walther PP .380. It was insanely accurate, for me. I would not recommend that .380 caliber for much. You have to shoot anything quite a few times to be effective, rather like a deflating balloon.

So try a few, regardless of caliber. See which you can naturally point the best. Then see what calibers it comes in. Really, you never want to shoot a human. Life as you know it will end, even if you where completely in the right. I could refer you to a recent case here in Northern AZ. If you get one to make animals inert, then you may be less inclined to practice with it. Ammo will be expensive and they tend not to be very fun to shoot, think slightly unpleasant recoil. If you do not practice with a pistol, you may as well carry a brick, it will achieve the same result. With humans and animals, it should be thought of a a deterrent. Don't F..k with me message to another human and noise for an animal to scare it away.

Just a couple corrections to statements made here:

There has been a documented case in North America of a human killed by wolves. Near Chignik, AK. I agree, however that this is an EXTREMELY rare occurrence. I sure wouldn’t carry a gun to protect myself from wolves.

Secondly, I may be wrong, but I believe that the .357 SIG is NOT a straight wall cartridge.

Otherwise, I couldn’t agree more with Hammer’s advice.

MTV

I misread and didn't see the sig.

Correct, the .357sig is not a straight wall round. I was thinking of the .357 magnum. That one is a straight walled round and was not originally designed for a rifle.

Hammer wrote:Honestly Whee, it sounds like a handgun is a rather silly expenditure of money for you. I mean, if you don't really enjoy shooting, what's it giving you?

If you're not really into hand-gunning, I can't see a single reason to use one in a "short range weapon" hunt when so many other, better weapons are allowed.

As for dispatching game...the Idaho law regarding .22's for killing wounded animals is ridiculous and unenforcible, and I wouldn't have a single qualm with violating it, providing you're taking head shots. If a .22 meets your needs and desires otherwise, I wouldn't give it a second thought. Besides, if you do your job with the rifle, you won't have to.

There's no absolute best answer here...most of us figure things out by doing or just move on to something else and forget about it.

Good luck!

The two things it would give me is a way to legally dispatch a wounded animal and a warm fuzzy. Pretty lame, eh? Thus, I haven't ever spent money on a pistol. I have no intention of hunting with the pistol either, I just want a pistol that is legal to use during a hunt if I need it. IDFG LEOs do ask what was used to dispatch the animal and they do spend all day hiding in the brush watching you hunt. I have experienced both those scenarios personally. I agree though, the law is ridiculous.

Recently I took a white tail deer with a 12ga slug. I hadn't practiced like I should have (switch weapons mid hunt because of a muzzle loader malfunction) and only wounded the animal, severed its spine. I didn't have anything other than the shotgun and the deer was thrashing around so I couldn't slit its throat so I shot it in the head. It was gross and messy. Any pistol would have been nice to have on that occasion.

I understand bear and wolf encounters are rare and the need to use a gun is even rarer. This is the warm fuzzy part for me. I've experienced wolves and bears in camp during raft trips. I'm a wimp so for me it was scary. I'm fully aware that I'll never use a pistol for protection against a bear or wolf but we all do things, some ridiculous, for the sake of feeling better/safer/etc.

akschu wrote:

whee wrote:I agree with pretty much everything your post Hammer. Those points are some of the reasons why I haven't purchased a pistol previously.

Bear spray is a done deal.

Just a couple points on why I've ruled out some some calibers. In order to put down a wounded big game animal in ID the weapon used to put it down has to be legal for that hunt. Rim fire rounds are not legal to hunt big came with in ID and therefore a .22 pistol is illegal to use to put down a wounded animal. I also enjoy a "short range" weapon hunt which rules are:it is unlawful for hunters to use any weapon other than a muzzleloader, archery equipment, crossbow, a shotgun using slugs or shot of size #00 buck or larger, or a pistol using straight-walled cartridges not originally developed for rifles. This makes something like a .357sig not right for me.

IDK, maybe I won't buy a pistol. No point in wasting money on something I'll never be proficient enough to use.

If you never practice and you just want the warm fuzzy, just buy a Remington or Mossberg shotgun, then cut it down to 1" longer than the legal length.

You will feel super warm and fuzzy carrying it, if you need food because you are stuck somewhere, it will absolutely do the job, and if you have it over your shoulder, bad people will probably think twice.

If it's all about warm fuzzy and presenting to bad people, I think shotgun is the tool for you.

Besides, with a shotgun you can clay pidgin shoot, which is actually a LOT of fun.

If I'm too lazy to want to carry extra rounds for a revolver or a spare magazine for an auto do you really think I'm going to carry a shotgun? I have a Rem 870 that I planned to convert to a bear gun to carry in the plane then I got back into bird hunting. Still, I'm not going to carry such a thing when walking around in the woods.

Along the lines of dogpilot's comments; I have zero desire to point a gun at another human, ever. For me personally there is zero need to train for or be proficient in that kind of scenario.

Well, people have done stranger and more expensive things to get their warm fuzzies...

Might look at the S&W 360 PD...five shot .357 coming in at less than 12 ounces. It's just miserable to shoot .357's out of, but not bad with .38 Specials...even +P's, if you don't shoot many in a row.

The reason I recommend it is because it's small and light enough to warrant the amount of use it'll get...very little. It's the very definition of "any gun beats no gun", and it's the gun I cary the most...and I'm a die-hard gun person!

They make a .38 Special version (437 I think) which is half the price, but three ounces HEAVIER. Honestly, for what you're doing, those three ounces are probably deal killers as far as actually carrying the damn thing goes. Every gram you cary is a step you don't get to take that day.

Just ideas.

dogpilot wrote:... I always used my Walther PP .380. It was insanely accurate, for me. I would not recommend that .380 caliber for much. You have to shoot anything quite a few times to be effective, rather like a deflating balloon...

Ain't that the truth! I always saw the recent .380 resurgence as proof of the influence gun magazines have over the gun buying populace; and the fantastic ignorance of the gun buying populace as a whole.

Interesting thread, learning lots. Here's more https://www.range365.com/alaska-gun#page-7