Hammer wrote:Well, people have done stranger and more expensive things to get their warm fuzzies...

Might look at the S&W 360 PD...five shot .357 coming in at less than 12 ounces. It's just miserable to shoot .357's out of, but not bad with .38 Specials...even +P's, if you don't shoot many in a row.

The reason I recommend it is because it's small and light enough to warrant the amount of use it'll get...very little. It's the very definition of "any gun beats no gun", and it's the gun I cary the most...and I'm a die-hard gun person!

They make a .38 Special version (437 I think) which is half the price, but three ounces HEAVIER. Honestly, for what you're doing, those three ounces are probably deal killers as far as actually carrying the damn thing goes. Every gram you cary is a step you don't get to take that day.

Just ideas.

Slight revision to this post...
Shot a box of 130 grain .38’s today...accuracy is better than many would suspect, but the experience still sucks.

Even with standard loads, your trigger finger takes a real beatin from the gun jumping up. It’s still the most firepower you can get for such little weight, and if you want to cary a gun a lot and shoot it a little then it’s not a bad choice, but it ain’t not no fun to shoot!

I guess that after shooting full-house .357’s the .38’s seemed tame, but they aren’t THAT tame!

BTW, Underwood 180 grain .357’s clock in at 1020 FPS out of the little snub-nose, which is no slouch...but unless something was actually chewing on you at the time, you’d probably choose to hold your fire. The discomfort is akin to holding a lit firecracker in a tight grip...

The other day I wished I had my 9 mm with me, but it was at home in the bedstand drawer. I was driving into my crane yard in town in the dark, in my older Toyota RAV4 with it's tow bar, on. Unless I think I will be needing to drag the 4 behind the crane to a job (rarely) I always take the towbar off, but had neglected to do so since it's last use a few days earlier. Going the posted 45 mph limit, a mile from the yard, I was at that very moment thinking how I would take the bar off and stash it in the shed, when a deer "appeared" in front of me and bashed INTO THE TOWBAR!. It acted like a cowcatcher on a locomotive, it kept the good sized buck from going through the windshield most likely, or at minimum really messing up the grill and hood, or all three.

I considered stopping to check on the deer's condition, but then realized short of putting it in a choke hold or bludgening it with a tire iron, I had no way to put it down. It was clear of the roadway anyway, and hopefully not suffering too much. I found blood on the towbar, but no damage was done to the car, pretty fortuitous. This is the second time that tow bar has done this....... Point being, if I had been packing,I would have stopped and put it down if needed. For the time being, the tow bar remains ON.

Glad you averted damage but...



Damn, I couldn't help howling in laughter when my mind pictured the cow scene in Me, Myself, and Irene. Sometimes a 9mm just isn't enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGo9qADfPPg

Hammer wrote:

Hammer wrote:….Might look at the S&W 360 PD...five shot .357 coming in at less than 12 ounces. It's just miserable to shoot .357's out of, but not bad with .38 Specials...even +P's, if you don't shoot many in a row...….
They make a .38 Special version (437 I think) which is half the price, but three ounces HEAVIER. Honestly, for what you're doing, those three ounces are probably deal killers as far as actually carrying the damn thing goes. Every gram you cary is a step you don't get to take that day.....

Slight revision to this post...
Shot a box of 130 grain .38’s today...accuracy is better than many would suspect, but the experience still sucks. ......

MIght be that the 437 is just heavier enough that it moves from the 360's "nasty to shoot" to "not too bad to shoot"--
which in my book would make up for the "deal killer" extra 3 ounces.
I've owned two 437's, IMHO they're an excellent carry / nightstand gun.
Unfortunately I just don't like the squareback aesthetics and the wide trigger,
so I'll stick with one of my four bobbed-hammer Chief Specials.
FWIW my actual EDC is a mouse gun- a Ruger LCP.
Just enough less trouble for me to carry that it compensates for the lesser ballistics of the 380 ACP.

whee wrote:If I'm too lazy to want to carry extra rounds for a revolver or a spare magazine for an auto do you really think I'm going to carry a shotgun? I have a Rem 870 that I planned to convert to a bear gun to carry in the plane then I got back into bird hunting. Still, I'm not going to carry such a thing when walking around in the woods.

Along the lines of dogpilot's comments; I have zero desire to point a gun at another human, ever. For me personally there is zero need to train for or be proficient in that kind of scenario.

Sounds like you're already leaning in the right direction for yourself. You've outlined a lot of reasons (disinterest in training, disinterest in confronting humans, disinterest in carrying extra magazines) that all point to a gun being much more of a liability than an advantage. It's true that merely having a gun on you can serve as a deterrent in some scenarios; it can also make you a target, and only one dangerous step removed from the adage "if you draw your weapon you'd better be prepared to kill with it."

How about a folding survival rifle? I don't know anything about them, other than they seem to be enjoying a resurgence in popularity these days.

Hammer wrote:Well, people have done stranger and more expensive things to get their warm fuzzies

So Hammer, what sights do you use on your Glock 20? More specifically what sights would be best for a daylight charging critter at close range? I've often wondered if I would have the presence of mind to use my sights in an emergency or if I would just point and shoot and hope for the best. Certainly the emphasis should be on the front sight.

Nizina wrote:….Certainly the emphasis should be on the front sight.

I'm reminded of the old joke about a bear defense handgun shouldn't have a front sight.
That way, it won't hurt as bad when the bear sticks it up your ass......

Nizina wrote:

Hammer wrote:Well, people have done stranger and more expensive things to get their warm fuzzies

So Hammer, what sights do you use on your Glock 20? More specifically what sights would be best for a daylight charging critter at close range? I've often wondered if I would have the presence of mind to use my sights in an emergency or if I would just point and shoot and hope for the best. Certainly the emphasis should be on the front sight.

I went with Dawson Precision...adjustable black rear and a tritium front, though for daylight I believe a red fiber optic front would be better. Here's an example:
https://dawsonprecision.com/1-seller-da ... tic-front/

My G20 shot surprisingly high from the factory, so I ordered a taller front sight with my kit. It's great, though some holsters do not work with the taller sight. The Kenai chest holster does work, however.

There are some novelty sights out there...triangles and what not, but they never seem to get any traction, and I'm guessing there's a reason for that.

I had an optic on one of my Glocks for a while, and it did increase precision noticeably, but at the cost of fantastically, almost comically slow target acquisition under stress. Great for hunting, worthless for defense.

Regarding fast shooting under stress...if you force yourself to find and keep the front sight, even when 99% of what you're doing is just pointing, your accuracy will be triple what it is without finding the front sight. One practice I do is 16 rounds at a 6"x12" steel target at 20 feet, trying to get the last shot off before the first piece of brass hits the ground. It's point shooting for sure, but if I concentrate on the front sight, even though it's bouncing all over the place, my hits go WAY up. Under stress people revert to how they practiced, so it's a good routine to get into.

Oh...by the way, Underwood is having a 15% off sale...

hotrod180 wrote:

Nizina wrote:….Certainly the emphasis should be on the front sight.

I'm reminded of the old joke about a bear defense handgun shouldn't have a front sight.
That way, it won't hurt as bad when the bear sticks it up your ass......

Groan...
Just once I'd like to get through a conversation regarding firearms where that fossil of a joke, or the one about a slow friend, or the one about the .22 short to shoot your friend in the knee, or the one about...well I guess it's too late anyway.

Interesting thread, for sure.

My "go to" pistol has been a Ruger Security Six in .357 magnum, which I got as a Christmas present in 1971, right after they came out. Wife 1 bought it at the Elmendorf AFB base exchange. I have no idea how many rounds have been through it--not all that many, because I haven't shot it in ages. But whenever I did shoot it, it was 100% reliable and extremely accurate. I'm a pretty fair shot--when I had to qualify as a USAF officer with a .38 in 1968, the somewhat arrogant Master Sergeant range officer at Chanute AFB was just a little shocked, because I think he was used to young officers such as I was not knowing a thing about shooting--but I'd been shooting various weapons, both pistols and rifles, since I was 12.

I subscribe wholeheartedly to the concept, get a gun that fits you and that you can shoot. For myself, anything much "bigger" than a .357 would be overkill. I can handle it, but I know it's at my limit. Anything with grips much larger than my Security Six would be a mistake, because I have smallish hands. It fits me quite well with the stock wood grips.

The only time I have carried my pistol has been when I was deputized for prisoner transport in the mid-70s and in the woods. In the woods, I've had two encounters with 2-legged orneries, and in each case, all I did was lean over my pack to get something, in such a way that they could see my holstered pistol. In both cases, they were far enough away that I could have responded if necessary, but close enough to see I was armed--that was enough.

Whee, I don't think you need to fire thousands of rounds to be reasonably proficient with a pistol. I think a little training from a good instructor and some practice will do the trick. You already know the sight picture, so mostly what you need to learn is how to properly hold the firearm--one that fits you and that you can shoot.

Cary

Groan...
Just once I'd like to get through a conversation regarding firearms where that fossil of a joke, or the one about a slow friend, or the one about the .22 short to shoot your friend in the knee, or the one about...well I guess it's too late anyway.

Agree, though it does get funnier when it happens for real. A lot of bravado talk of "brothers in (locked) arms", "stay together", "looking large" early on, and by the end the faster guy just puts some distance on his running partner.

Pennsylvania man kills 679-pound male black bear at 5 yards with .357 handgun: report

https://www.foxnews.com/great-outdoors/ ... 57-handgun

Karmutzen wrote:….. A lot of bravado talk of "brothers in (locked) arms", "stay together", "looking large" early on, and by the end the faster guy just puts some distance on his running partner. ...

That musta been scarey as hell,
I'd hope that lighting off a round woulda run the bear off.
As far as "stay together" goes.....

Karmutzen wrote:

Groan...
Just once I'd like to get through a conversation regarding firearms where that fossil of a joke, or the one about a slow friend, or the one about the .22 short to shoot your friend in the knee, or the one about...well I guess it's too late anyway.

Agree, though it does get funnier when it happens for real. A lot of bravado talk of "brothers in (locked) arms", "stay together", "looking large" early on, and by the end the faster guy just puts some distance on his running partner.

I think that bear was real close to getting up the nerve to eat some man-meat. As the video progresses he just gets more and more excited and agitated...lots of misplaced aggression, which is never a good sign. I didn't see the "target lock" eye contact or ear and nose constriction that commonly precedes an attack, but I bet if there was just one person instead of two we'd have seen it.

In my opinion they should have acted much more aggressively...rocks, sticks, screaming and charging...anything but letting the bear get more comfortable in its roll as predator. I recon the only thing that saved them was that there were two of them, and they were full sized adults, and the bear was quite small.

Regarding caliber discussions, ANY handgun would be rather handy in a situation like that. Given the time and proximity, even a .22 rimfire would be completely lethal in the hands of someone who could shoot it accurately.

The video is pretty good, but I think it would be funnier if the first guy locked the second guy out of the car so we could see him banging on the window and jerking the handle, trying to get in.

The bear in that video was certainly testing the situation, but had not gotten up its nerve or gotten mad enough to attack. It certainly could have gotten out of hand though. Rocks could have probably helped in this case, but you need to watch the reaction of the bear after you test the waters with your own aggressive actions. Bears don't always respond as you want them to. I've shot in front of bears to scare them away only to see the bear get more aggressive. I've had dozens of bear encounters and mostly it is easy to scare the bear away. Grizzly bear scare me the most as they don't want to be surprised and don't seem to want to take a lot of crap off you. I think the main thing with griz is to not make them lose face. They don't do that well.

Pictured below is a black bear that got aggressive. You can see its intense focus and determination in its posture. Much different than what was shown in the video. This bear scared me and I ultimately had to shoot in front of it. Luckily the shot scared him away. I've had griz that wanted to stick that gun barrel where the sun doesn't shine.

I've often found myself working in the yard with black bear going about their business not a hundred feet away. But at the same time I am always cautious when going around the corner of our buildings for fear of surprising a docile bear into an aggressive action. A bear's attitude can change quickly.

Nizina wrote:

Yup...that's the look! Makes me wanna pee a little just seeing the picture...

I think this article that reported a recent double fatality in the Yukon https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46325575 pretty much says it all for WHY we need to carry in bear country. It's a sad one.

PapernScissors wrote:I think this article that reported a recent double fatality in the Yukon https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46325575 pretty much says it all for WHY we need to carry in bear country. It's a sad one.

That is a terrible one, but it's also extremely unusual. Both black and grizzly bears can be predacious to humans, but it's just not their normal behavior. Of all the risks they faced by choosing to live where they did, I'd have put bears pretty far down the list.

There are scenarios you cannot win, regardless of how you prepare yourself, and bear attacks can certainly fall into that category. I've met some interesting and amazing women in my life, but I don't think I've met one yet who would shoulder a rifle to take their infant for a walk out the cabin door. I'm sure they exist, but even I would do a double take at that one. I guess I just can't see a new mother thinking that her environment was that dangerous and deciding that the appropriate solution was a gun, rather than taking her baby somewhere else.

I think it makes sense for people who enjoy shooting and have gained expertise relevant to the situation to cary a gun while traveling in bear country, if they WANT to. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that people who travel unarmed through bear country are taking an unacceptable risk. Many, (most?) people are probably safer being unarmed, both in that they can't shoot themselves accidentally, and in that they don't behave like they're the top of the food chain just because they have a gun.

On a side note, I have a friend who does extensive, almost unimaginable expeditions in both the tropics and the arctic. Twice he's had bears (one polar, one grizzly) unzip the side of his tent with a claw to see what was inside. His take on it is that you can negotiate a little with bears, as even polar bears generally find humans offensive to their sensibilities and would rather eat something else. Crocodiles, on the other hand, are beyond negotiation. To them, you're just another piece of slow meat.

Well, I guess we could debate bear behavior for ever and never come up with a conclusion as to why a particular incident occurs. However, every mother here in the Wrangell mountains has to deal with living in bear country. Many carry a pistol when away from the immediate cabin. Most bad cases occur when the bear is startled and I would be willing to bet that this is what happened to the Canadian pair, although it was fall and the bear could have been in a state of hyperphagia . That is not to say that bears can't or wont be aggressive on their own. I've had friends killed and eaten by bear (usually griz) and have known of other similar incidents as well (one even this last summer).

One of the biggest problems is becoming docile. I know I certainly have. We often have bears crossing through or home area where we feel we are safe -- and we usually are. But there will be that one time when you in your docile state come around a corner and are face to face with a similarly docile bear that takes umbrage at being startled or loosing face. Then watch out. Hopefully you will have a pistol available, can get to it, and know how to use it (and get lucky).

We actually like having bear around as they are a source of interest. I have many pictures of bear and other critters on my FB site. When ever we have visitors the one thing that they always want to see are bear. And when they do, they feel their visit is complete. Moose are cool too, but they are just not the same as bear (yet perhaps every bit as dangerous).

We try to be safe and don't encourage bad behavior by us, our visitors, or the bear, but we sure want to increase our odds by not becoming too complacent and by usually carrying a pistol even though it is an inconvenience. A rifle or cannon might be better, but a pistol is a good compromise.

Nizina wrote:...We actually like having bear around as they are a source of interest...

I agree completely. I think that bears, grizzlies especially, make the world a much more interesting place to be. I have friends on the south island of NZ who thought I would love it. It's pretty and all, but without bears or lions or wolves, it's just not that interesting.