Rob wrote:Flaps again?

Soo… if a guy who constantly dumps the flaps with his right hand on the switch or johnson bar is at risk of dumping the gear when he gets in a different airplane…

Is the guy who constantly rotates on departure with his right hand on the stick, at risk of pulling the throttle out at rotation with his right hand on it while in a SxS airplane?

… jus' sayin'….

Well...yes, that is a risk. When I started flying right seat my muscle memory made it hell. I'd sometimes push down on the yoke when I wanted to add throttle...no fun low to the ground.

As a species we're very dependent on muscle memory. The evolution of muscle memory is a huge part of what makes humans so efficient, as it frees our brain to ponder other, more important things wile we're doing routine tasks. You can override it with a lot of mental effort, but you can't turn it off...it's like a program that constantly runs in the background and takes over when given the chance.

It's also the default override under stress or when your conscious brain is working at full capacity. If you put a round glass of water and a square mug of poison on the table in front of you, you'd be at little risk of drinking the poison, if drinking was your only chore. But if you routinely drank water while doing something that fully occupied your mind, be it crossword puzzles or rebuilding a transmission or flying an airplane, you'd eventually drink the poison by mistake.

That's the argument for not reconfiguring the airplane until you're off the runway, and statistically it's a good argument.

Obviously if you want to squeeze every last drop of performance out of an airplane (or anything else) you need to operate at a higher level, and people can do that...some better than others. Manipulating the flaps while the airplane is still moving adds both a level of performance and a level of complexity that isn't there if you don't adjust them. Whether it's the right thing to do on any particular landing is up to the pilot.

The real question is do you dump the flaps when your three pointing or wheel landing [emoji90]

Skalywag wrote:The real question is do you dump the flaps when your three pointing or wheel landing [emoji90]

I retract the flaps after every landing.

I retract flaps gently on a wheel landing because it will drop the tailwheel too hard.

The Scout has better rudder when the flaps are up... retract quickly after touch down or not use flaps in strong cross winds.

In severe wind conditions I wheel land with only 10 degrees or no flaps. The Scout can handle pretty nasty winds.

Rob wrote:Flaps again?

Soo… if a guy who constantly dumps the flaps with his right hand on the switch or johnson bar is at risk of dumping the gear when he gets in a different airplane…

Is the guy who constantly rotates on departure with his right hand on the stick, at risk of pulling the throttle out at rotation with his right hand on it while in a SxS airplane?

… jus' sayin'….

Until last week, the measily 400 hours ive accumulated have been in Cessna 172, 182 and 206s.
Started my tailwheel a few days ago in a Citabria. Instructor laughed when we did power-off stalls and i pushed the stick (in my rt hand of course) forward and only applied partial throttle when she broke. All muscle memory! My right hand instinctively goes one way and my left another.

I had a bad experience once doing a low pass from the right seat in a friend's C120. Trying to level out and add power by pulling with the left hand & pushing with the right didn't produce the desired effect-- what it did do was scare the shit out of both me & the airplane's owner who was in the left seat. Muscule memory is hard to overcome. Having mostly Cessna time, I have to think twice about what to do with which hand when flying a tandem airplane.

This is the same issue as amphib pilots that instinctively (and disastrously) drop the gear before landing on water because dropping the gear is what you do before landing. At some point you have to consciously be able to override a muscle memory.

I think our brain has the ability to doubt our instincts when we are in an unfamiliar environment. Anybody that has learned to drive on the left side of the street knows what I'm talking about.

I know a few pilots that are current on several different aircraft. Are they less safe than a pilot that only flies one aircraft?

albravo wrote:This is the same issue as amphib pilots that instinctively (and disastrously) drop the gear before landing on water because dropping the gear is what you do before landing. At some point you have to consciously be able to override a muscle memory.

I think our brain has the ability to doubt our instincts when we are in an unfamiliar environment. Anybody that has learned to drive on the left side of the street knows what I'm talking about.

I know a few pilots that are current on several different aircraft. Are they less safe than a pilot that only flies one aircraft?

All true. I've traveled extensively back and forth between countries where they drive on the left side, and while you do get used to it, transitioning back and forth is extremely confusing. More than once I've found myself driving down a lonely stretch of Nevada highway in the left hand lane.

As for pilots current on several aircraft...yes, I think they are less safe than if all their hours were in one aircraft. Less safe doesn't mean unsafe, of course.

Anyone ever ride a Indian made Enfield motorcycle? The foot brake and the shifter are on opposite sides to US bikes. You can figure it out in a few days, but lord help you if you try going back and forth between a Enfield and a "standard" motorcycle in traffic. It just does't work! You cannot "think" your way through the complex manipulation of riding a motorcycle in traffic, any more than you can "think" your way through landing an airplane.

Hammer wrote:.......Anyone ever ride a Indian made Enfield motorcycle? The foot brake and the shifter are on opposite sides to US bikes.....

Lots of bikes had shifters on the right side back in the day, even Harley. Big twins were left foot shift, when they were "toe-tappers" that is, and Sportsters were right. Up til somewhere in the 1970's anyway. I believe at least some old Indians used a left-hand throttle and a right-side hand shifter, opposite of Harley. Generally speaking, US & Japanese bikes were left foot shift and European & British bikes were right.

I have never had any problem flying from right seat in airplanes with control wheels or the Luscombe. I think the wheel triggered the different throttle hand. Almost all my hours in Luscombe were instructing from the right seat with the stick in my right hand and the throttle in my left hand. The very few times I actually took one of the Luscombes somewhere by myself, takeoff and approach were very awkward with the stick in my left hand and the throttle in my right. This, I think, came from thousands of hours with stick or cyclic in my right hand and throttle or collective in my left hand. With the control wheel, on the other hand, I had simultaneous experience with both seat positions.

The same kind of problem comes up with trying to teach the apparent rate of closure approach to a pilot who has had thousands of iterations of approaching fast by looking at an airspeed indicator, rounding our, holding off in a ground effect float, and flaring.

Some of us multi-task better than others. I think, however, that learning many differently arranged aircraft or machines simultaneously is preferable to getting a lot of experience with one before changing to a differently arranged one.

I also think learning more than one language increases ones mental dexterity rather than causing problems with ones native language.

hotrod180 wrote:

Hammer wrote:.......Anyone ever ride a Indian made Enfield motorcycle? The foot brake and the shifter are on opposite sides to US bikes.....

Lots of bikes had shifters on the right side back in the day, even Harley. Big twins were left foot shift, when they were "toe-tappers" that is, and Sportsters were right. Up til somewhere in the 1970's anyway. I believe at least some old Indians used a left-hand throttle and a right-side hand shifter, opposite of Harley. Generally speaking, US & Japanese bikes were left foot shift and European & British bikes were right.

Had the same experience in a previous life on road racing motorcycles. Full-on road race bikes have a upside down shifter linkage. Upshifting is done by pushing down and obviously vice versa. I almost ended up making a mess of myself (and motorcycle) at a Fontana track day for that very reason.

JB

Ha Ha! Yup.

250 Yamaha to a Bultaco Pursang 250. Thought I was gonna splatter myself until I figured it out.

Gump

When I was in jr high school, I wanted a Pursang so bad I could taste it. Never did get one..by the time I could afford a bike of my own, I was into Harleys.

I loved that bike. Fang the Pursang.

From there to a Penton Jackpiner for enduro riding, which ended up my last motorcycle. Had a Honda Elsinore in there somewhere too, but now 45 years later the order is getting fuzzy.

Gump

Oh yeah.... Flaps.

I've used them before.

Gump

GumpAir wrote:Oh yeah.... Flaps.

I've used them before.

Gump

I think I saw the time you did.

Hi Hammer,

Unfortunately the portion of my post you snipped off specifically dealt with the situation you describe. Too bad you lopped it off.

For those who replied, I have some thoughts about muscle memory, but before I proceed, I'd like to throw in a small disclaimer. Our fine leader has asked that we keep things civil, I both respect and appreciate that, but some things are pretty hard to sugar coat. If you're the sensitive type, can't take a buddy calling you a bonehead when you're actually being one, or feel the need to sing kumbayah at every fire, you may as well stop here and move on… If you have an interest in my thought process (you must be bored) then read on ;

In the second paragraph of my prior post;

Rob wrote: ...Treat each and every landing with the special attention it deserves and make each move within that landing with purpose expecting a certain action or result of that move and you'll never be surprised…

Take care, Rob

I said that because IMHO landing is such a critical phase of flight that handing it over to muscle memory is absolutely ridiculous. Apparently the FAA agrees with this thought process, as it is one of the few phases of flight that actually requires its own logging. Nowhere in your logbook is a space for climb, decent, or Dutch rolls... But landings are so important that not only do you log them, they have specific requirements re currency.

So... In my not so humble opinion, if you're going to let the plane 'have her head' in this phase of flight (read; left it to muscle memory) and then get a surprise... Well sorry friend, but you're being a bonehead... Have I done it? You bet, has it bit me? Absolutely! I was beyond bonehead, plain and simple. The professionalism in me simply won't let me post blame to muscle memory, I had my head up my ass and the airplane told me so.

Does that mean I don't believe muscle memory exists? Hardly..., I know it does, and I encourage it! in the right context i.e.; Find yourself out for sushi with friends and discover sushi isn't for your stomach? By all means find the can and let the ole' sphincter muscle have it's memory.. Ya.. it'll be a different seat… but that's ok… let 'er rip…
Landing an airplane? Na… that's a good time to let the brain group tell the muscle group 'My airplane'…

Don't have a urinal at home?.. no worries, I promise you turning the urethra group loose is gonna be ok.. They can pretend it's the toilet…
Taking off with a helli?… Probably a good time to get ahold of the muscle group and let a higher power of thought prevail..

Now, in SV's case, a different story... After pure SxS time you're getting checked out in a new plane. The simple fact of the matter is that you're going to have to build new skills. You weren't being a bonehead, you were simply being inexperienced.... Hence the check out. OTOH, if you get all fixed up and one day let complacency fly the airplane, well... Hopefully you're in the right one.

Hammer touched on stress, and rightfully so. It's why we train for emergencies. IMHO if you're trying to build muscle memory during those training sessions, not only are you short changing yourself on training, but the potential exists that when the emergency comes, it's going to be a tad different than how the training was, and your mind is going to get stuck on stupid. Because when fit hits the shan, everything looks different than what you trained for... Train hard, and train to learn, God gave you a brain with which to Control those muscles. It's good fun when my wife gets in my jeep (3 spd) after driving hers (5spd) Just finding reverse is a chore. The Cranbrook? it's a 3 on the tree, and my P/U is auto… But even she can get it together and remember to verify what gear she really is in before she turns loose of the clutch… I think she'd be a switch hitter pilot just fine… in fact I know she would...

Lastly, if you still disagree with the above, I am ok with that, but may I suggest replacing your airplane seat cushion with a toilet, after all 1 in 15 seatings you leave a surprise behind, it's only a matter of time before your sphincter muscles forget you're in the wrong seat….

Take care, Rob

contactflying wrote:
I also think learning more than one language increases ones mental dexterity rather than causing problems with ones native language.

In context, this is perhaps one of the wisest statements I've read in BCP! [emoji106]

Flying offers up such an incredible challenge/opportunity to use a handful of tools in abstract and ever changing applications, operating in locations and situations that'd be hard to dream up...thus the obsession [emoji12]

Every day's a new day, every landings a new landing. If your stuck in the past how do you evolve; if you land/fly like u did last flight, how do you improve?

.