When I boought a Mr. Funnel for fueling, I tested it with a continuity meter and it is conductive; they must have added something to the plastic to make it so. I tested a red plastic can and mine are not conductive so I bought metal cans and bond those to the funnel with a wire and aligator clips. The funnel is in contact with the filler neck so the plane fuel tank, funnel, and can are all bonded together. Pretty inexpensive. The metal cans aren't cheap anymore, but it doesn't take long to pay for them using mogas instead of avgas.

As we know, if plastic cans are non-conductive, there is no argument that they can accumulate a static charge. That is simple physics that can be repeatably demonstrated. The only question is if the right conditions exist to create enough electrical potential to cause a spark. That is rare, but it does happen, dust, snow, rain, wind, lightning, polyester, rayon, nylon, etc can all produce more potential for static charges. The problem is we don't know when fueling if the conditions are right for a spark so why take the chance when simple steps can be taken to remove the risk?

blackrock wrote: The only question is if the right conditions exist to create enough electrical potential to cause a spark. That is rare, but it does happen, dust, snow, rain, wind, lightning, polyester, rayon, nylon, etc can all produce more potential for static charges. The problem is we don't know when fueling if the conditions are right for a spark so why take the chance when simple steps can be taken to remove the risk?

And, in the words of the inimitable Sgt. Callahan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnMLGkj91Og

MTV

mtv wrote:

blackrock wrote:

And, in the words of the inimitable Sgt. Callahan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnMLGkj91Og

MTV

Actually MTV, I'd keep my head down on this thread or they are going to ask you to explain the difference between bonded and grounded again.

Nizina

blackrock wrote:....The metal cans aren't cheap anymore, but it doesn't take long to pay for them using mogas instead of avgas.....

Is ethanol-free mogas pretty widely available in Nevada nowadays? Here in western Washington it's getting pretty scarse. I have one local source left for E-zero mogas, premium grade only at about $3.55 a gallon. It'll be a sad day if & when it goes away.

We have a Shell station right next to the Elko airport with pumps labeled NO ETHANOL. Shell had a marketing program a while back promoting "Oxygen Enriched" gas. That was ethanol; their bussiness dropped way off. Then they started a "Nitrogen Enriched" promotion, labeled the pumps no ethanol and life has been good since. Trucks/cars are always stacked up to buy gas there now. I'm not sure about other towns, but for sure other stations in our town add the crap.

Plenty of ethanol threads around here guys...let's keep this one limited to sparks, fire, explosions, and bonding.

When you ground your plane-and funnel-and gas can, repeat the 'mantra'...."Bond, Bond, Bond................"

Whether you call it by its evidently new (politically correct? fashionable? academically preferred?) term-or just 'ground it', it is the SMART thing to do. Things can get REAL ugly, REAL fast otherwise.

lc

Littlecub wrote:Whether you call it by its evidently new (politically correct? fashionable? academically preferred?) term-or just 'ground it', it is the SMART thing to do. Things can get REAL ugly, REAL fast otherwise.

lc

You seem to take issue with the distinction between grounding and bonding, based on your consecutive attempts to mock a forum member who is correct in emphasizing the distinction.

Here's some definitions for you from this page:

ecmweb.com wrote:Bonding: The permanent joining of metal parts together to form an electrically conductive path that has the capacity to conduct safely any fault current likely to be imposed on it.

Ground-fault current path: An electrically conductive path from a ground fault to the electrical supply source.

Generally, to "ground" is to provide a path to the "earth," which is why 8' ground rods are driven into the soil near the foundation of a house, and connected to the ground bus of the service. Common ground back to this bus is termed "grounding," but from the definition above, it's the fault path for an electrical supply source.

Bonding on the other hand, is a very simple conductive path between two given conductors, the kind of concept you would apply to something simple, like trying to avoid a static discharge where electrical potential exists. "Earthing" not required to achieve spark.

To "ground" is often used interchangeably, but incorrectly so.

Well, we are a product of our background and experiences.......

In the 50s I was young but I was around gasoline tank trucks and they were equipped with a flat woven metal strap that touched the pavement when they would come to a stop. They were place so the wind would 'lift' them up so the wear factor would be lessened while driving. They were called 'ground straps'. Frequently the medium to large 'box' trucks that were gas powered that hauled misc freight had them, too. In addition the fuel tank trucks on-loading or off-loading would run a clamping ground cable. Admittedly these workers were not PHDs, but this was the Pacific NW and appeared to be common usage to an inquisitive kid. Maybe not proper usage, but common usage.

In the mid 60s in the desert SW I took flying, and the common usage with my flight instructors and 'ground ' instructors was to ground the airplane by hooking the ground cable (wire) to the exhaust stack before fueling the airplane. Common usage.

In the early 70s I was a full time fireman that went through fire training academy in the south. We trained out of the 'Big red books' that were gospel at that time on a national level. Then in so Cal I was a fireman for a few years.To be honest, 'bonding' may have been mentioned as proper usage (frankly, I do not remember it...), but conversationally and in the training, the term 'grounding' was used extensively.

Yes, I am guilty of trying to make the 'common guy/gal' feel comfortable on this forum, and maybe attempting to use some humor to do it. When negative comments are made about spelling, grammar, and proper word usage, good people-who might be sensitive already-might not contribute in the future. I am fond of this site and would like it to remain friendly to 'all' those that fly, whether their writing skills are polished or not. So yes, I do tend try to stick a pin in pomposity balloons. Sometimes even little ones......
I know Mike is right in his usage. Researched it when it first came up. He seems to enjoy hammering proper usage, I kinda enjoy razzing that hammering. The point has been repeatedly made about 'proper' usage. I like a little nod to the common man and common usage. Does it get absolutely NO RESPECT at all?
A rose by any other name is still a rose......

lc

Littlecub,

My point isn't necessarily about the useage of the word, but rather the proper PROCEDURE. Grounding your airplane while fueling (if indeed that is what you really do) is useless. Bonding is the proper safety procedure.

The trucks you describe do in fact ground the truck to....wait for it.....ground, as in the earth. That's not bonding, it's grounding.

Anyway, the word doesn't mean anything....it's the proper procedure that is essential for safety. And, you can call it anything you like, I reckon.

MTV

When you have an electrical problem in your plane that is associated with the negative side of the battery, you call it a ground problem.

Essentially the airframe becomes the "ground".

I have never heard anyone call it a "negative problem". ( I guess because a "negative problem" would indicate everything is okay)

Metal can, metal nozzel in contact metal filler bung of airplane tank = bonded

Happy Holidays!

I am just wondering how we have done it for the 30+ years I can remember without burning a plane down around here. I would venture a guess that you have a better chance getting taken out by a car walking across the street than you do burning you plane up cause you were filling it up with a plastic gas can. Has it ever happened, I am sure it has, is it cause to be overly anal about it... I kinda doubt it. I fly alot in a nice cold dry climate where static is a huge issue with damn near everything we do, but I have yet to see a smoldering skeleton with a plastic jug laying next to it and some guy standing around crying about how he just burned up his plane cause it "spontaneously combusted"

Now back to the grounding bonding fight, I am gonna go get some popcorn.

*edit* If you are going to fill using a plastic can, dont just stand on top of the tire and put the can on your shoulder and pour it. I set the can on the wing to "bond" the can to the plane, then tip it over with my finger over the spout and stick the nozzle in the gas tank with the spout touching the edge of the filler neck, remove finger, and open vent. This removes the potential for sparks. Essentially, the can is "bonded" to the airframe. It cant be "grounded" as the plane is insulated from good ole mother earth by the nice big fat black round things that roll.

SE6601KF wrote:When you have an electrical problem in your plane that is associated with the negative side of the battery, you call it a ground problem.

Essentially the airframe becomes the "ground".

That's a good observation. Same thing in a car's DC electrical system. Since we're splitting hairs, I think this an electrical convention for circuits where an electric power source is used (12v/24v battery) and an actual common "ground" is required to complete the circuit. But that's not bonding, it's completing an electrical circuit.

All bonding accomplishes is negating electrical potential, which can still exist between two objects, even if those objects are grounded, and the discharge is usually an arc, which can ignite fumes. A recipe where everything has to be perfectly wrong for it to happen.

I know two people personally who've ignited fires while fueling, due to static discharge. I guess it's like anything else that carries a risk. Hasn't happened to you until it does. Hasn't happened to me yet and I've fueled a ton of stuff with plastic cans too, including my Cessna. After watching that Spike TV show "1000 Ways to Die" I have a new respect for stuff that can kill you that you never considered, or underestimated.

Zane,
I remembered my high school science and I just started thinking maybe this knowledge can save lives:

If you have dry skin you will have a tendency to pick up a static charge.

If you have dry fly away hair, static is made worse by running a plastic comb through it.

Rubbing on wool or polyesters causes static.


So this winter when your skin is dry, don't comb your hair and always remove your woolen underwear, polyester nylons or panties and rub yourself with liberal amounts of body oils or lotion before fueling your plane from cans.


Somebody please stop me.

dirtstrip wrote:

So this winter when your skin is dry, don't comb your hair and always remove your woolen underwear, polyester nylons or panties and rub yourself with liberal amounts of body oils or lotion before fueling your plane from cans.

Or farting

So this winter when your skin is dry, don't comb your hair and always remove your woolen underwear, polyester nylons or panties and rub yourself with liberal amounts of body oils or lotion before fueling your plane from cans.


Somebody please stop me.

Why?... sounds like your just getting warmed up.

Early recognition of the signs of static electricity can save anyone's life.

Tales of Sparky Lightfoot
In..
The Hits Just Keep Comin'
Or
The Life You Save May Be Your Own


In this episode you, Sparky Lightfoot, are in the tie down area pre-flighting your aircraft. Parked next to yours is another plane. Out the corner of your ever watchful eye you catch an uninformed well meaning pilot moving toward their aircraft with a can of gas. Coming in closer you notice the tell tale dry, fly- away hair, frayed and sticking out from the sides of the approaching ball cap, which you alone know is a prime key indicator of dry skin and static electricity. Jumping in to action, you throw them to the ground to wrestle away their woolen underwear while, at the same time frantically applying and rubbing them all over with body oil. In record time, you, Sparky Lightfoot, have succeeded in saving yet another pilot from a fateful end. As you both stand, you are now ready to hear their account of the near death experience and how you snatched them back from the jaws of death itself. Before they can speak you feel the tire iron bury itself deep in the back of your head. Of course, you would have preferred to meet this woman's husband under better circumstances, now you can only hope to run faster scared and wounded than he can mad... and, if you can, you will have saved, on this day, a second life.
Yes, another thankless day in the life of.... Sparky Lightfoot!
Merry Christmas To All
dirtstrip

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