Glidergeek wrote:
Not my philosophy, just a reply to Jeryl's question of do you know of anybody know of anyone hurt or blown up.

Sorry, I read that as a statement to the effect of "if it hasn't happened yet, it likely won't."

The probability of an ignition event is independent of the last or next fueling session. If someone has been doing it successfully for years, they've likely been in atmospheric conditions that aren't as conducive to discharge (higher humidity) or using some other technique that somehow reduces opportunity for discharge.

Not to repeat it all, but...

Since when operating on wheels there is no place for the static charge to dissipate due to the rubber wheels insulating your plane from the ground, you must ground your plane whether you are fueling from a FBO pump or a can.

Float drivers seem to be pretty safe since the floats ground the bird directly to the water.

I am as guilty as anyone for not grounding my plane before fueling it from a can. If the plane is grounded and the can is grounded and wiped down with a moist cloth by a grounded person, then all should be good. In fact the act of sitting the can on moist ground should do the trick. Now we just need to carry a copper spike w/ a length of wire to ground the bird.

My larger fear is puncturing those cheap ass auto store red gas cans or having the vent cap come off.

Transport Canada has approved only one gas can for transport in an aircraft. The information and description is below.


I cut the following from this website:

http://www.sceptermilitary.com/

Fuel Cans (MFC)
Scepter's military fuel cans are manufactured from extra tough, high molecular weight, high density polyethylene. They protect the fuel from contamination, and the environment from fuel leakage and fuel vapours. With a capacity of 20 litres, the MFC features three integral handles, and the flat rectangular shape of the old steel jerry cans that it replaced.

Military fuel cans are readily stacked or palletized for efficient storage and shipping. The cap retainer strap may be colour coded and marked with a raised letter to identify the type of fuel: Yellow for diesel, Red for gasoline, etc.

The easy-open twist cap, internal air vent, low-noise handling, and rapid pouring rate with Scepter's high-flow spouts, deliver superior performance.

In military live-fire tests, the MFC melts and burns, but it does not explode. The Scepter MFC fuel can exceeds the United Nations — Transport of Dangerous Goods Model Regulations and is Design Registered with Transport Canada, permitting its use universally for the transportation of fuels by all modes - air, sea, rail and road.

Scepter military fuel cans are produced in the colours and language markings that the customer requires. Some standard English language markings in olive drab, field drab or three different sand colours are available.

Check out this killer homebrew fueling station I found in Google image search:

TomD wrote:Not to repeat it all, but...

Since when operating on wheels there is no place for the static charge to dissipate due to the rubber wheels insulating your plane from the ground, you must ground your plane whether you are fueling from a FBO pump or a can.

Float drivers seem to be pretty safe since the floats ground the bird directly to the water.

TomD

It seems like I heard a couple of years ago when the video went around before (willyb on the bottom of pg 5), that static elec during fueling was the cause at the start of the video.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8801&hl=en

Jack

TomD wrote:Not to repeat it all, but...

Since when operating on wheels there is no place for the static charge to dissipate due to the rubber wheels insulating your plane from the ground, you must ground your plane whether you are fueling from a FBO pump or a can.

You misunderstand. Grounding anything is not what matters. Getting the plane and the tank of gas connected and therefore of an equal electrical potential is what matters. When you attach the wire to your exhaust stack(or where ever) you are not grounding it. You are attaching it to the tank of gas. That wire is not attached to a metal rod that is placed in the ground.

When I pivot my jug on the leading edge of the wing as I pour into my Mr. Funnel, are the two connected?

You misunderstand. Grounding anything is not what matters. Getting the plane and the tank of gas connected and therefore of an equal electrical potential is what matters. When you attach the wire to your exhaust stack(or where ever) you are not grounding it. You are attaching it to the tank of gas. That wire is not attached to a metal rod that is placed in the ground.

Ok, then run the ground wire to your ankle or wrist while on the ladder and holding the gas can. We routinely ground ourselves with a grounding strap when working on electrical components.

If we are talking about fueling from cans at our hanger, then the primary danger would seem to be the static issue we are beating into submission. If we are discussing fueling from cans we brought with us to a remote field, I continue to feel the static charge is far less danger than the possibility of fuel fumes in the cabin or, probably worse, in a sealed float compartment.

180Marty wrote:When I pivot my jug on the leading edge of the wing as I pour into my Mr. Funnel, are the two connected?

No. You can't connect plastic to anything.

Bonanza Man wrote:

180Marty wrote:When I pivot my jug on the leading edge of the wing as I pour into my Mr. Funnel, are the two connected?

No. You can't connect plastic to anything.

THIS is the core of the problem. Plastic cannot be reliably discharged.

No. You can't connect plastic to anything.

So basically it doesn't matter if you fill the jug sitting on a pickup bedliner or on the cement next to the gas pump. I thought filling on the cement dissipated the charge potential.

by 180Marty » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:07 pm

No. You can't connect plastic to anything.

So basically it doesn't matter if you fill the jug sitting on a pickup bedliner or on the cement next to the gas pump. I thought filling on the cement dissipated the charge potential.

Actually, it MIGHT matter. Setting the container on the ground REDUCES the resistance, thus reducing the potential for a static charge dissipation, but it doesn't 100% eliminate it. The gas can on the bedliner has the bedliner, tires, and a big gap of air preventing it from reaching equal potential. This does increase the risk of a static buildup that could lead to a discharge.

What is hard to get the human brain wrapped around is that everything conducts electricity and everything resists the flow of electricity. It just happens that plastic and other insulating materials have orders of magnitude higher resistance than conductive materials like copper, etc. and are thus poor conductors. That doesn't mean they don't - They just do it at an extremely low rate. BM was right in his earlier post regarding the key charge equalization that needs to occur is between the can discharging the fuel and the plane receiving the fuel. You need a viable path for the electrons to flow between the two vessels, replacing those in transit with the fuel. Why we ground planes to the earth besides dissipating static buildup during flight is to provide another path for electrons to flow through, back through ground rods attached to the fuel dispensing tank, in addition to the ground wire going back to the tank clipped to the plane. Wet ground is a reasonable conductor of electricity. Most fuel dispensing hose has another wire embedded in the rubber itself, attached to the metallic couplings thus providing another path for electrons to flow. This is done to further lower the potential energy difference and provide redundant pathways in case one gets interrupted with corrosion, or "open" due to a bad connection, etc.

My fueling choice is a metal safety can, that way I can set it on the plane, equalize the potential before any fumes are vented, then connect it with a ground wire via alligator clips to the plane. I use a metal funnel, and make sure the can is touching the funnel and the funnel is in contact with the fill opening. If I need more than 5 gallons, I transfer it outside from plastic to metal, after first setting both on the ground, where the breeze will blow the gas fumes away - As long as the gas vapor concentration is below the lower explosive limit, no kaboom even if you have a static discharge. This isn't completely foolproof, but it lowers the risk as much as possible using plastic cans in the mix.

Flynengr

You guys are scaring the shit outa me. I'm gonna dust off my old set of plans for a nuclear-powered airplane & get back to work.....

Years ago I took a ultralight apart for a friend that was in the hospital. He was in the hospital because he had flown the ultralight through some 245,000 VAC power lines: he hit the top line, the non load carrying one, that stopped him, and then he dribbled through the 4 hot lines like a pin ball.
The entire aircraft was in flames before he hit the ground 85' below. It was over a drag strip, and he damn near took out the ambulance, but didn't so help was near. The dry grass he crashed in also caught on fire. Flyin ABOVE him, I had a ring side seat, it was quite a show. All I could think was what the hell I was going to tell his wife, because there was no doubt he could have lived through that. To my surprise I found after landing he was in the hospital, not the morgue. He never lost conciousness, didn't get burned or shocked, the only injury was a bruised shoulder. To this day, when I see this guy I think of it, what a lucky SOB!
Anyway, I took the plane apart, it was trashed, all the cable rigging melted, big burn holes the size of half dollars in the tubing, the nylock nut plastic melted, but the open cockpit framework was unzapped, and most amazing of all, 4 gallons of fuel in two plastic jugs with plastic fuel lines, was still intact! In fact I dumped it in my bird as pay for my trouble.

I like those Sceptre fuel jerry cans, that's more like it, I bet you can't get them in California though! I'm going to check Summit Racing's site, I bet they have some high performance fuel cans.

Check these out; http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BOB-90915/?rtype=10
They look like they could dump that 5 gallons out in about 15 seconds...they also have some large trick funnels with fine screen filters, price ain't bad either.

And here's the funnel to go with it, a REAL funnel, with 14" sides and a 60 micron filter that snaps in place. Well there goes my next 40 bucks, I got to get one of them, and a couple of those 5 gallon "racing" fuel jugs, the heack with the Rubbermaid crap.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-CSUM400/?rtype=10

I did fuel with plastic cans yesterday and here is my new routine.

Take them out of my car and fuel them on the ground.
Touch the nozzle to the can before opening it and keep it touching the can while filling

At the airport:
Set the cans on the wing while I do a preflight.
Keep the can touching the plane as I tip it over to the fuel inlet. I keep my finger in the end of the nozzle until the nozzle is in contact with the filler neck. I'm leaning on the wing too.
Put the filler inside as far as possible so the fuel doesn't fall through vapor very far before hitting the fuel.

Run !!!!

The yellow cans in the photo of that fueling cart look a lot like Austrian Military cans that were for sale in the local Military Surplus store here locally a year ago. My brother bought a couple. Worked good and probably cost a lot less than the Austrian Gov paid for them. Think I will start looking for metal cans just in case.

Hello Nizina & Backcountry Pilots,
The metal valves stems are only $2.95 a piece at http://www.gemplers.com/product/6008XB/ ... Tire-Valve. I ordered four, but should have got more. To replace the worthless "Enviro-Flo" spouts I ordered four of the old style spouts from: http://www.preferredpowersports.com/esh ... L__WAT.htm at $4.95. NOTE: Not legal for sale in California per California Code of Regulations, Sections 2467-2467.8.

I also made a simple 3 foot grounding cable that goes from my exhaust to a metal tie-down stake. If anyone could tell me if there is any av gas available in Uniat, or Nuiqsut Alaska in early August I'd sure appreciate the information. I'm trying to put together my North Slope caribou hunt fuel logistics.

Thanks,

James

James,

As previously noted, GROUNDING the plane isn't the issue. The plane does NOT have to be grounded, so those grounding cables are irrelevant.

The problem is BONDING to nuetralize the electric potential between the airplane and the fueling source. That's why when fueling at an FBO, you crank out their BONDING cable, which is connected to the fuel TANK. This completes the circuit between the fueling system and the airplane, so that you don't arc a spark between the fuel nozzle and the fuel filler.

As to fuel in Umiat, you might call Wright Air Service in Fairbanks, AK. and ask them. One or more of the pilots there will know if and when there might be fuel there. They may also know if there's fuel at Nuiqsut. Or, give the Flight Service Station in Barrow a call, and ask them if they know. The FSS in Alaska are still operational. Those folks are based in FAI, but cycle in and out of Barrow. If they don't know if fuel's available, they'll have contact info for the commercial operators who go in and out of there with mail and pax, and THEY will be able to tell you if there's fuel, and if it's available.

MTV

Well, thanks to the internet I just dropped a hundred bucks and I havn't even left the house yet. I have two of the Summit Racing 5 gallon jugs and the filtered 14" funnel ordered. My fueling problem in the winter is I can't taxi to my 300 gallon (bonded/grounded/filtered, just like an FBO) bulk tank. And, I don't really have an option to move it closer to the hanger, that'd create other problems. So, I've been hauling fuel in a 55 gallon drum (clean and new, it used to have racing fuel in it, got it free). That stays upstairs in my shop, and I transfer out of it into plastic jugs and carry them down the stairs to the hanger and dump it in the plane (outside). At less then 4 GPH that's workable for the shortened amount of flying I do in the winter.

I guess I fall into the camp of "been fueling with plastic cans for over 20 years, thousands of times and gallons, in all kinds of conditions, and have not had a problem or had first hand experience of anyone else having one". Not to ignore the usefull advice and comments, and I will bond as much as possible but it's plastic for me.

So how do you get a spark to jump from plastic? I have been fueling everything I own out of plastic since, well a long long time.

Even at the fire station we use plastic. Talk about a bunch of fire paranoid people there. The NFPA

(National Fire Protection Association, the folks who brought you smoke and carbon monoxide detectors)

would stop the practice if there was much danger of fire. This forum is the only place I have heard it talked about.

In 29+ years in the fire department I never heard this talked about. The only fuel transfer fires I recall were from fumes finding an open spark, gas water heater, cigarette. Yes people fuel while smoking. Even had one fellow fill his kitchen sink with gas and proceed to clean motorcycle parts while smoking a joint. NO JOKE!! Plastic cans were a non issue.

dokmow what have you heard????

I am not saying it could never happen but the odds must be somewhere around winning the lottery.