I'm certainly no expert, I do own a 206 and a NO flap 7ac so coming in as slow as possible has become a norm for me. Yesterday, 206, 40 degree flaps, stall horn beeping on and off the last 15 seconds tells me I'm close. I normally don't go to 40 degree but it was practicing. I can and have done a go around at 40 degree in.
I do not have much time in a 182 but would think it is similar to the 206.

MOTO my 2 cents.....Safety first! Good Luck

Today I landed at this strip which in national park Corcovado in Costa Rica.
I didnt raise the flaps and initially it felt the plane was going to fall apart, it was rough.
In this case I think raising the flaps might get you stopped earlier but will be much worse for the plane , specially the nose wheel at not having the flaps lift the weight a bit in the initial touch down which is were there is most of the speed.

Early in training, 41 years ago, my CFII told me that dumping the flaps might shorten the roll-out, but that the risk when I later started flying retractables that I might raise the gear instead of the flaps was too great. On the "primacy" theory, he didn't want me to raise the flaps until I was done landing, which basically meant down to a walk speed. So I've always had the basic idea that things like cleaning up the flaps, turning off the fuel pump, opening cowl flaps, etc. should wait.

But after I bought my P172D with its large Johnson bar flap handle, I thought I'd try dumping the flaps, since manual flaps can be dumped much quicker than the electric flaps I was more accustomed to--and I didn't have any retractable gear to worry about. The first thing that happened was that I did mild S-turns across the runway, because I wasn't accustomed to bending over to lower the flap handle while steering. So I figured I'd practice some. Over the 10 years I've had her, I have practiced some, and I can now dump the flaps quickly without zigzagging.

But honestly I can't detect any real difference. I still land relatively short and relatively soft without excessive braking most of the time, whether I leave 40 flaps in or pull them up all the way. About the only time I can see any difference is recovering from a crosswind landing, but I rarely use any flaps, or at most 10 flaps, in significant crosswinds.

So I think I'm in the camp of raise them if you want, but if you do, don't expect it to make any material difference, especially in a 182. And if it distracts you from staying out of the trees, then don't retract them. FWIW, I've gone back to raising them as I clean up everything to taxi off the runway--seems much safer.

Cary

That stc for moving the flap handle sounds pretty good. Oddly, the flap switch in my j model is harder to reach the taller you are, and I'm 6'2". To stay out of the way of the yoke, you have to reach under it to raise the flaps, and with the yoke pulled back, it's even further. For tall guys, by the time you get your shoulder down to get a straight angle under the yoke, you're leaned over at about a 45.

I guess another argument could be made about really HAVING to stop 5 feet sooner. Most of the planes we fly land shorter then they takeoff, regardless of what surface we land on...

Just ask Manuel. He will say leave them alone. But, if they are electric..... Well, leave them alone too.

I'm going to jump in here and spew my $.02!!
I have a couple of hours in a 206 going into some very rough places, a few of the rougher ones are not strips of any kind.
First flaps hold the tail up when you are slow! Nose wheel breaks if on the ground!
Just 1 little story and I think there are about 6 folks I know of on here who know how to fly a 206 in the rough!!
I don't think any of them have chimed in!!
Per the the question of the original post.
I was flying a well known football player wild life tv guy and his kid and there tv guys into the braided parts on the Bering river below the Bering Glacier from a nice lodge on Cape Suckling, I flew in with their guide to see where we were going, Really big rocks and really soft!!
Went home and put the 29"s on the mains! This is our old 64 206 with 300 hp and the elevator extension. I did not want to use the really shiny ones we had!! And this is the lightest of the 4.
Left Cape Suckling loaded to the gills 1 guy and a whole load, Now I can tell you this was worth my while!!$$$
If the nose wheel is on the ground while I'm landing I'm going to need a helo to get out! Just the way it was. Big gravel and cobbles.
Now I can tell you, you can come in with full flaps Steep approach (REAL SLOW) and with the electric flaps and hit the up and also get to the ground when they are just shy of fully up, now when you do this you have to be almost full throttle when you touch down Yoke all the way back And the whole Idea is to use as much brake and throttle to stop and to keep the tail down until you are stopped,cause if you put the nose wheel down it will break off along with the prop. Soft gravel with cobbles up to 10"s
This is an area 350' long with river at one end and a 10' cut bank at the other. This landing is done and you have used up maybe 250" of your area, unload.
Taxi with the tail down to the river real straight and then shut down and have your guy help you turn the plane around. He was on the tail helping you keep the nose off.
Now for the take off, Now here you don't screw around and worry about your prop!! As you slam the throttle to the stop you hit the flaps down and hold the front tire just high enough to keep it out of the rocks, when you come off the bank you have full flaps, you settle back into ground effect and as you head down the river you milk the flaps up and head back for the second of 4 loads in, just repeat! Your adding just the amount of fuel you used each flight!!
Now it's 10 days later and your here to take everything back out, Well I made 12 trips out of there with about 300lbs each trip, I hauled everything but the people, I had a friend come in with his cub and haul the live cargo out to a big bar a few miles away.
Had fun, was on the edge of my seat, spent some nice time at the lodge, got paid way to much money and made one hell of a tip!
Customer got a show out of it and I got paid, was lucky and did not break anything, could I do that right now? Absolutely not!! I'm not flying 1500 hours a year in a 206 and into the rough like I was then!!
Can you get in shorter by dumping the flaps on landing, Damn right in a 206 you can, and I'm pretty sure you could in a 182 and also the front tire on a 182 will fall off much easier than a 206, Keep it off the ground when it's rough! You can't do that to a stop with the flaps down.

Also you won't learn how to do this at Riidle or any other flight school!! They don't know how!!!

Is it smart to do it, Hey that's for you to answer!!
Is it worth it? It was for me!

Just don't say you can't just because you haven't done it, or know how to!!

Well gee whiz I sure wouldn't want to disappoint Rob and the boss man by not jumping in on a flap discussion, even electric flaps.

On a Cessna, in most cases, having the flaps extended causes a nose down pitch force as discussed. In a nosewheel Cessna this means you would have a slightly higher effective weight on the nose, and Cessna nosewheels are already regarded by many as a weak point for bush flying. So from that perspective flaps retracted would add a little safety/damage prevention (allowing the nose to be held off longer), whether or not it shortens the landing roll.

Having the nose up higher for longer on rollout also creates more drag, which can help slow you down too.

Having the flaps extended on landing roll also makes the airplane "lighter", meaning more lift, or more ground effect, or more ground "cushion" or whatever you want to call it. This would also lessen the effectiveness of the brakes.

Reducing lift just after touchdown plants the airplane more firmly, as already mentioned, giving you stronger or sooner effective braking.

It appears to me that having the flaps retracted immediately on touchdown has more pro's than con's.

MotoDave I suggest that you simply get used to where the flap switch is, and learn to swat it upwards immediately on touchdown.

Man, That is a cool story George. Working commercially in Alaska sounds like the ultimate challenge for anyone who wants to get to the top of the back country game. I would have never thought a plane like a 206 could go into a strip like that, but it is truly amazing how extraordinary skills can be built up with daily practice to make almost the impossible, possible. That would be cool to have a job like that, cause it would take a small fortune to maintain that level of competency.

you took off in 350' with those loads, on 29s on big gravel? I stand by my statement that a 206 can be landed and stopped shorter leaving the flaps in.

Headoutdaplane wrote:you took off in 350' with those loads, on 29s on big gravel? I stand by my statement that a 206 can be landed and stopped shorter leaving the flaps in.

OK, Good onya!

I did not think Icould in this situation as the tires were about 4-6" into the soft dry gravel and this was impregnated with a lot of big cobbles, I did not think I could keep the front tire up from when I started to roll to take off by starting out with my flaps at 20 or more as I could not keep the nose up enough to get rolling.
Just the way I did it at the time and it worked for me.

So you took off in 350', with that load, no wind, on 29s in 4" of soft sand and large gravel??? Come down to Homer on Thursday for pilot night, we need good stories, and that is a good story.

Headoutdaplane wrote:So you took off in 350', with that load, no wind, on 29s in 4" of soft sand and large gravel??? Come down to Homer on Thursday for pilot night, we need good stories, and that is a good story.

That load was me and 300 lbs in an empty 206, off of a 10' cut bank and down the river, sea level and late fall, If that's unbelievable to you so be it!
Done here.

M6RV6 wrote:

Headoutdaplane wrote:So you took off in 350', with that load, no wind, on 29s in 4" of soft sand and large gravel??? Come down to Homer on Thursday for pilot night, we need good stories, and that is a good story.

That load was me and 300 lbs in an empty 206, off of a 10' cut bank and down the river, sea level and late fall, If that's unbelievable to you so be it!
Done here.

M6, while I can see how you may have interpreted Headouta's comment as calling you out, I don't think he meant it that way, I think he meant good story in a good way.....not in a sarcastic way. I found your story, while I know nothing of 206's, to be legit, just from the way you told it. One of those internet things, hard to tell someones attitude through a keyboard, I believe both of you!

The horizontal stab on my year of 182 is a bit anemic compared to any other model year Ive flown. Full flap stalls at forward CG cannot even be imagined without full nose down trim...the elevator runs out of travel at more than 55 mph without the reverse trim.

Bringing the flaps up as Im touching down makes it easy to keep the nose off the ground on rollout...something that is not easy without full down elevator trim with the flaps down.

The flaps come up fast. And it does make a big difference in braking ability, although, as already mentioned, who cares when most landings require a fraction of the distance to land as to takeoff again. I spend a lot more planning and wondering about the takeoff than the landing when performance counts, and a short field takeoff is often un-abortable whereas a landing is usually optional.

Here's a handy supplemental checklist for the 182. It's produced with safety in mind by Red Sky Ventures. FWIW, they have flap retraction right after maximum braking in their short field procedure and no retraction for soft. http://www.redskyventures.org/doc/cessna-checklists/Checklist-Procedureslist_C182_Flipstyle_RSV_Feb2010.pdf

Isn't it the main gear on a trike that puts more down force (than full flaps) on the nose gear in soft stuff or if the main gear's free rolling is mitigated in any way, including by brakes? The biggest Cessna I have flown regularly is 180 and 182. Wouldn't the main gear be even farther back on a 206, putting more weight on the nose gear than the 182? I'm so weak now I can't keep the nose up without help on the 182 and too short to reach the trim. I have always used cushions under me and behind me. Oregon Aero has the best.

contactflying wrote:Isn't it the main gear on a trike that puts more down force (than full flaps) on the nose gear in soft stuff or if the main gear's free rolling is mitigated in any way, including by brakes? The biggest Cessna I have flown regularly is 180 and 182. Wouldn't the main gear be even farther back on a 206, putting more weight on the nose gear than the 182? I'm so weak now I can't keep the nose up without help on the 182 and too short to reach the trim. I have always used cushions under me and behind me. Oregon Aero has the best.

For the 205-206-207 usually the heavier the plane the lighter the nosewheel.
Empty it the toughest to keep the nose up. especially with the small tail.

So loaded flaps or not the nose is light. Sometimes too light

Referring to Maules here. The ability to operate the manual lever controlled flaps places flaps in the realm of control surfaces, not just something to set.
The flaps are fluidly used/moved for takeoff, landing, tight turns, helping lighten impact with previously hidden obstacles, killing lift, placing weight on brake activated wheels, fighting crosswinds, making higher stall speeds, helping against noseover, protecting nosewheel/strut loads, reducing main tyre flat spots on hard surface hard braking, high altitude hot day training simulation, and leaping tall buildings in a single bound(joke).
Maule not only has down flap to 48 degrees but upflap to -7 degrees.
This up flap reduces lift therefore drag squared at cruise speeds thus increasing cruise speed.
Moving the flaps instantaneously (if desired) from 48 deg of lift and drag to -7 deg of negative (downward) lift at rear of wing, behind the landing main gear moves the load back so max braking can be utilized.
The Trigear Maule can be fitted with a nosestrut boot and a springleaf tailskid and landed like a taildragger, keeping the nosewheel out of the rocks or potholes for significantly more time whilst keeping more braking weight on the mains.
Flap operation on a Maule is one of the greatest tools available.

SE6601KF wrote:

contactflying wrote:Isn't it the main gear on a trike that puts more down force (than full flaps) on the nose gear in soft stuff or if the main gear's free rolling is mitigated in any way, including by brakes? The biggest Cessna I have flown regularly is 180 and 182. Wouldn't the main gear be even farther back on a 206, putting more weight on the nose gear than the 182? I'm so weak now I can't keep the nose up without help on the 182 and too short to reach the trim. I have always used cushions under me and behind me. Oregon Aero has the best.

For the 205-206-207 usually the heavier the plane the lighter the nosewheel.
Empty it the toughest to keep the nose up. especially with the small tail.

So loaded flaps or not the nose is light. Sometimes too light

Trent
You need to get a skid plate over that rear tiedown ring before you wear it through