contactflying wrote:Because I didn't have good brakes and taught in airplanes that didn't have good brakes and especially because they tend to cause damage

Contact,
That's a very interesting observation!

I recently spoke with an experienced A&P/CFI, who had just restored an older Citabria 7GCBC to be used as a tail-wheel trainer. He told me that he intentionally DID NOT install double-puck brakes on it, because he didn't want his students to have brakes that were too powerful. He said, "As an instructor, you can wrestle & overpower the student's inputs for throttle, stick and rudder. But, you can't physically reduce how hard they are stepping on the brakes."

Thanx, Dave.

You don't need double puck brakes to get into trouble with the big Champ/Citabria (1650 gross). I had Cleveland single puck on my old 7GC and they were able to lock up the wheels with any tire up to 26 in Bushwheels.

During primary instruction in Citabrias the instructors I had would require me to power out of a bad landing. If I didn't get the plane properly aligned with the runway and under control until safely 3-point......it was a full power takeoff recovery and try it again. As a consequence somewhere in my reptile brain it's hardwired to go around for another attempt at a better landing.

If somehow the pilot has approached or even landed the plane and focuses only on making the best of a deteriorating situation then bad things may happen as on-ground options get used up. All the options have to be practiced and imprinted early in the training. There's nothing like a command to "go around" during flight reviews to refresh that procedure, especially if in the pilot's mind they've already landed and parked safely.

Gary

Bagarre wrote:Triangle ratio - Width of gear legs vs length of tail. Equal distance width to length is probably the ideal but not very practical...

Center of Gravity related to triangle ratio. Most forward = less tail inertia but more prone to nose over...

Rudder size: The bigger, the better: Like most important things in life.

For the Aeronautical engineers in the crowd; are there other factors in the formula?

tailwheel flex, angle...etc

in all my years of flying, I have never ever heard anyone say it was a bad decision to go around out of a bad situation

Well, to tie this thread up with a bow: in answer to the question “Which taildraggers are least prone to ground looping?”

Answer: The ones that are tied down or in a hangar.

Pilot participation is required, regardless of how gentle the plane is. And, brakes don’t break airplanes.....pilots do.

Hope this helps..

MTV

mtv wrote:Well, to tie this thread up with a bow: in answer to the question “Which taildraggers are least prone to ground looping?”

Answer: The ones that are tied down or in a hangar.

Pilot participation is required, regardless of how gentle the plane is. And, brakes don’t break airplanes.....pilots do.

Hope this helps..

MTV

Perfect answer! Even the most "gentle" taildragger can bite you if the pilot gets sloppy.

The coin operated plane in front of Kmart is least likely to ground loop.

Airplanes don't ground loop, pilots do.

Having my first airplane destroyed by a ground looper student on solo, then ground looping the replacement taught me that if you just keep the airplane straight, it's not an issue. If you're not going straight when the wheels touch slam the throttle to the firewall and do it again. My brain was all broken Brian Landsburgh fixed it by just telling me to keep saying to myself on short final "keep it straight keep it straight keep it straight"

I concur planes don't groundloop pilots do!

Walk the pedals, walk the pedals, walk the pedals.

Just got my taildragger endorsement two days ago, (Thanks JugheadF15) so I read with interest all 5 pages of this topic.
During my training something I tried to do was to land very slow, thinking, the slower the landing the better chances of avoiding a ground loop.
Lots of training and learning to come , specially windy conditions, since it was quite calm when I was getting my endorsement.
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Use the rudder dynamically and proactively to make the airplane go where you want it to go. Don't wait until it goes otherwise and have to react. Wag the tail on short final to make sure you are already moving your feet before touchdown. Keep the desired touchdown point bracketed between your legs and not under the prop. Where you go even a good reaction like rudder stab, throttle up, differential brake, or go around is just too late. The feet need move just a bit continuously. The brain will sort it out.

The ones with the best pilot at the controls

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If we look at the desired touchdown spot or the numbers as if between out toes, that much slack is fine for dynamic proactive bracketing of nose gear airplanes so long as the exact spot is bracketed. This much grossness helps the student actually see the value of dynamic proactive bracketing. In a large grass field, that much horizontal slack is fine for tail-draggers so long as the exact spot is bracketed. When the runway gets narrow, like a county road or tight landing zone, the dynamic proactive wiggle needs to be tightened up to JP256's hover button.

The one who is best at the controls. Yes, the one who constantly moves his feet and doesn't drive the nose with the yoke. Up high release all controls and the airplane will take care of itself. During taxi, takeoff, short final, touchdown, and roll out, the pilot must be constantly, actively making the airplane go where he wants it to go.

The same goes for the desired glide (actually power pitch) angle to the spot. Round out and hold off puts a tremendous burden on the pilot to maintain the dynamic proactive rudder walk all the way down the runway until the relative wind is light enough to stall the wing in low ground effect.

motoadve wrote:Just got my taildragger endorsement two days ago, (Thanks JugheadF15) so I read with interest all 5 pages of this topic.
During my training something I tried to do was to land very slow, thinking, the slower the landing the better chances of avoiding a ground loop.
Lots of training and learning to come , specially windy conditions, since it was quite calm when I was getting my endorsement.
.

Very cool! Glad you got it done! You're going to have a blast!

For me personally, if its windy, I almost always do wheel landings and as I roll out, get aileron correction in for the wind.

Crosswind actually makes it easier and safer, Larry. Easier because the functions of bank to counter drift and rudder to direct our course become clear. Safer because we are punished immediately for thinking we can quit moving our feet.

The difficult and dangerous condition is relative calm. Now it is hard to see that aileron will just mess up the approach and that the feet need to move continuously. Now, in calm, we are prime for ground loop.

Moto, Congrats on the endorsement. It has the potential to make you a better pilot. The ink in the book alone won't do it, there are plenty of crappy TW pilots, but I suspect you will do your part at keeping current long enough to ingrain any good habits that weren't already present. I happen to be of the belief that starting in a TD could make you a better pilot (sooner), but flying is the culmination of much training and many learned skills, so it's not a guarantee, nor is learning in a trike a guarantee that you'll do poorly. I suspect your transition was no big deal as a result of your prior experience and passion for the art.

The thread started with a good honest question. It has some good info, but too many pages of typical internet stuff to keep the attention of attention challenged people like myself. If I were responding to BluNosDav today, I probably would have said something to the effect of... since he is interested in back country flying he should divert more energy in to seeking good instruction than which airframe is less prone... as most backcountry aircraft tend to be more ground stable than other genre. With good mentoring, the time required to be safe enough on the ground to mature your own skillset (and avoid a ground loop) is relatively small. If you haven't got the patience to make that time, you probably haven't got the patience to do as well as you could have otherwise, and perhaps will get to challenge the OWT's.

When seeking to make a more well rounded pilot out of our son, we went the opposite way. I could have easily handed him the keys to my cub, which is set up such that an orangutang could probably land it. Instead we elected to get him into an under powered aircraft with expander brakes that wouldn't help avoid anything you didn't initiate, in fact they wouldn't help initiate anything either He was 'light' TW safe (not expert, just safe) in under 10 hrs.

Good flying... Knowledge does not equal fine motor skills, neither can be bought or replaced by equipment. Good flying requires both.

Take care, Rob

Hi Jim